Medieval Archives

Gary: The Medieval Archives
Podcast Episode. 84.

Welcome back to the Medieval
Archives podcast, the podcast

for medieval news history and
entertainment. I'm your host,

Gary, a.k.a. the Archivist. In
today's episode, we are going to

discuss the medieval night and
we have a special guest,

Christopher Gravett. Now, Chris
is a former senior curator at

the Royal Armouries at the Tower
of London, and he's also served

as a historical advisor on
numerous TV shows and movies.

During our talk, he shares some
fascinating behind the scenes

moments from those movies and
reveals how much TV and movie

producers actually listened to
the historical advisors. Even

comedian and medieval historian
Terry Jones asked Chris for

advice when writing his books.
And the majority of our

conversation revolves around
Chris's new book titled The

Medieval Night, Available now.
And we discuss all things

knights with their training,
weapons, armor and a whole lot

more. If you have questions or
comments or if you have a topic

you're dying to hear on the show,
send them over to podcast at

medieval archives dot com or
leave us a message on the

voicemail line.

7207221066. The show notes for
this lesson are at medieval

archives dot com slash 84. Okay,
let's get into the talk with

Chris and learn more about the
medieval knights.

Today we're joined by special
guest Christopher Gravett. Chris

is the former curator at the
Royal Armouries at the Tower of

London. He's been a history
advisor on TV and movies and

he's written several books on
medieval warfare, medieval

castles and medieval knights.
Chris, welcome to the show and

thanks for being here.

Chris: My pleasure.

Gary: So let's first start out
with your background. What what

got you into medieval knights?
What got you interested in

medieval history in general?

Chris: Yeah, I think possibly
because my mother was interested

in history. So it was in this
period she was interested in the

Tudors and Stuarts, the
Victorians. I remember when I

was looking at the

history Victoria History book at
school was one of those

children's books and it had a
picture of a medieval all the

equipment going on.

Fascinating. Most of the teacher,
come on, come on, write a little

history on it, which was a bit
unusual for I think it was about

ten years of

what was a rebel guide. So it
obviously was sort of

interesting overnight. And in
1966, when I was about 15, they

had the big 900 fund obviously
for the sacrifice things in the

conquest and 300 or the de facto
where we actually are going to

price firms. I went to a parents

rally, had really celebrations.
I heard jousting, which was

pretty rare, actually. So I
think it must be what Hirst and

the re-enactments of the Battle
was. This is in the days when we

didn't really have all of these
re-enactments. I was already

getting quite interested in that
period and especially nice on

nine, I think, for this

captive market really beginning
to hit TV programmes and the

radio programme. And so the
whole thing drew me and I think

from then on, not just the
writing side, mostly writing

articles for motoring magazines,
trying to model soldiers, you

know, what people do, and just
went down the history route and

then.

Gary: We went to university and
then you did you get a job at

the Royal Armouries right away
or was that later on?

Chris: I started off in the
British Museum in fact erm which

is really interesting. I mean
you obviously you, you're

allowed to get your hands on
some very, very important things

like the various chess pieces in
Rome, in the parts are extremely

interesting to anyone who likes
very nice little military pieces,

including the little pieces
passing their rooms. Erm and I

had a beautiful prior to 15th
century going to where I, which

was just carried in tournament
where a lot of resilience leads

the periods along with the
scroll sign. Good luck or you

will get, you know, which is the
captive Arctic Circle. And

although it was really
interesting there was a lot of

medieval material which was, it
was magnificent, magnificent

stuff. It was more my interest.
So yes, I eventually saw the

post of the Roman armories and
transferred across. Eventually

lucky enough to get a place and
went off and became eventually

senior curator.

Gary: So for those who don't
know, could you tell us a little

bit what the Royal Armouries are
and then as the curator, what

your duties and responsibilities
were?

Chris: Yes, the Royal Arms was
an institution that was at that

time it was in the Tower of
London, which I heard most

people who heard about, you know,
did not get it right.

And that over displays in the
tower. And I was one of the

curators. Now, since springs
displays and I have a major

museum up in the north and I
also went down to the south

coast to at that time we had all
the displays there and what kind

of curator. And the Tate is
really I mean, first of all, I

see regard after the material,
you know, the conservation

officer, you know, looking after
it in that sense. But you you

have to look at the exhibits,
show it off to the public

discussion exhibitions. If you
have to use force, you have to

take visitors around. You have
to show people the reserve

collections in your home because
you can't put everything on

display. So you have to bring
people who just want to go into.

So they all have been in the
back rooms of the furniture with

serious students and the library
staff in the same room you see

on the paper about which books
are written by the experts. And

the people never heard of the
expert

lectures and good talks at the
time inside the tower. So it's

quite a varied room. Yeah. And
you've got people coming in. You

want to make comment. Oh, or
from the makers. Okay. And what

they do to the real thing. And
then you definitely get the

chance to

show what they can do and we get
some tips and so forth. And very

good, really very, very cool.

Gary: Sounds like there's a of a
bunch of things that you could

be doing on a day to day basis
that, you know, keeps it

interesting without doing the
same thing over and over.

Chris: Oh yes. Erm.

Gary: Are there any famous
pieces of armour from, you know,

kings throughout the Middle Ages
or anything like that in the

Royal Armouries.

Chris: Lots of pieces, a lot of
the medieval material especially

in this country were removed of
course by Henry VII because he

wanted to upgrade his collection
to be modern. So most possibly a

lot of the equipment from the
late into this country and of

course is Henry's. So there are
a lot of items from Henry

post

medieval equipment they consider
in a sense to back into the

collection to a good looking
collection for the modern

visitor. Very nice pieces.
They're not native to our

country, you know, they were the
work here in the Middle Ages, if

you like, and not a silver and
swords and breadcrumbs. And so,

yeah. So this is a very good job.
It was a it was interesting when

you give talks because a lot of
the time with any case in regard

to talks or lectures to
international groups in the UK,

talks like that you got to put
through such as ornaments or

something like that. You also
give talks, ordinary people in

history groups who didn't really
know anything about the and then

you'd sort of be talking to
people who really had

misconceptions, you know, they
thought, All right, good. Tom No,

you couldn't get a horse. That's
occurring because it's the

beginning of the notes and so
forth. You have to sort of say,

no, they didn't do that because
you just because you were not

getting on the horses and up not
long ago. So it was it was it

was quite a fun thing to do. And
then quite often you find people

would actually confess because
they didn't really have any clue

When you started exclaiming, you
haven't moved because you grew

so close contact with it and you
realize how cleverly it was done

so that people could move around.
And it became an absolutely

fascinating subject to teach you
what what a great person. What

sort of satisfaction out of
teaching people what was capable

of doing and how it was made.
And I think we got a lot more

respect for the of because I
think a lot of people sort of

blacksmiths put it together
because they weren't practising,

were highly skilled people that
just took off actually to stay

in, maintain something
incredible. And when you've got

something like a very expensive
princely something or works of

art, you know how to decorate.

Gary: It with gold rivets and
things like that going through

them all. Yeah,

Chris: books and decorators and
gear. And so when you consider

you can always sort of move a
little slowly pivoting really,

so that you can fit into a need.
For example, if you think about

if you build a new place and it
creates a London, if you find

your name, you could I suppose
we can because that's the nature

of what will happen. So you have
two little plates flying over

each other to fill that gap
between the joints. And then

when you straighten up, we've
got to sort and tell them to

close for who on earth we
thought of when you when you

were doing all of them. And then
when you when you've been to

hold on, you've got the same
problem. Of course, the foreman

wants to twist this work. It
doesn't just need to burn. So

you've got to have a special
side in order to have to twist

the rear over. So the very.

Gary: Things you wouldn't think
about when you're just putting

out a suit of armor.

Chris: Yeah. Even the fact that
where the joints line, they

might shortly overlapped away
from the working point so that

it wouldn't climb into the
joints itself, so the joints

would be going away from where
it's coming. And then you have

little restocks recall maybe
where your throat is. Imagine

you're wearing the sorts of
derivatives on the breastplate

so that if a weapon comes,
getting disappointed, it's in

that letter going over to the
right from the current.

Gary: Was the armors that you
want, the ones that think about

all those little things to keep
you safe.

Chris: And then people will say,
well, this is a very heavy you

know you through its abilities
have use 24 occasions or

something like that.

Gary: So that's not too bad.

Chris: Not too bad. Let's just
say great. It's wonder of your

body if you're the trained mind.
I mean, you've got in the Army

today carrying backpacks with
you probably way more than that.

Certainly World War Two, I think,
are kind of.

Gary: Yeah, some of those guys
jumped in with almost 100 pounds

of gear.

Chris: Dinner on, which is far
worse. And I mean, you know, the

worst thing is that you're going
to get home. Yeah, that's a

problem because you can't get
the heat away from your body. I

think the most common thing we
were asked is what's this

practice on the trips? You know,
from practice on the side, we're

on the run and so on reflected
on later on where you know, the

was needed. So what is that is
in some Victorian writings

it's it was a stall for your
lungs so that you could actually

renew my contacts in the shop.
You didn't go started on your

own and it was called the lungs
rest and it's not really

addressed. Race is actually I
race because the average person

trying to stop what's going to
become your own the number of

times you bring the gun and
people people that something

strange brackets sticking out is
kind of funny work sometimes you

know reactions are getting in
the gun. Yeah and I used to

especially after the race moved
up to experience most of the

equipment went up to 37. And I
studied in London and I became

curator of the tapestries. We
had not so much the medical

equipment. We had to go sit in
the yard sometimes, but we still

carried on with the educational
problem during dressing sessions.

And so overnight, because they
had a replica 15th century

prints armour which just
happened to fit no nice more. So

we had a few drawbacks around
the floor, just more restrictive

and become sort of an ornament
of it. And they made some more

to fit on the wreath. And then
we, we got some leggings and

shoes and fitted on the Roman
coins so that we could get all

this put. All the work should be
done with the guns put in so

that we could do this all
conquering, you know, because it

wasn't very quick. We had all
the metal paths. I remember we

used to do three sessions in the
gallery, but nobody's nice with

to go through the of things
which are not part of it. So

we didn't decide to do it, but
we used to dress. We would get

ready with the top of some of
the hundreds of points. We took

about 10 minutes I suppose, to
put it on, and then we come out

some reflective books of report
to them, and then we just talk

through dressing things
afterwards until it was

completely covered, including
the sword. All the men were

demonstrating, you know, jumping
up and down. And if I were lucky

or on the ground, get up,
because it was very,

very, very cold. You know, this
is this is a curator, is that

that time was probably going on
and trying to look straight or

sit at the desk some of the time
and walk on the floor and get up.

In the full armor.

Gary: So a trained night would
have no problem doing things

like that.

Chris: And we used to sometimes
dress

girls from America. We used to
have these interns from America,

used to come and do some work at
the town. At the end of the time,

you used to get a little treat
sometimes and be dressed in the

elements of some sort. So if you
want to get on the ground and

see if you can get up and we
used to get up and think, okay,

I'm one one American, and I came
up one time to have them to take

to get an ornament. And we said
about 10 minutes. He's gotten

improvement, but he's got tanks.
And so we took it all off to go.

Are you ready? Every time? And
it took us 10 minutes to

complete the old mill.

Gary: I said.

Chris: Yeah, you're going to be
old and topless with your crew

all the time. Who took to
Twitter to 10 minutes?

Gary: That's not bad at all.

Chris: You know, all the stuff
that Shakespearean history

person when it was two in the
morning, whatever I would go

myself. So it's a bit early in
the day,

but we're growing something
which is good. But if you did it

for a week and frankly it wasn't
something I would throw, it is

not very really. Yeah.

Gary: You're ready to be out of
armour.

Chris: Have I got some? Yeah.

Gary: That's excellent.

Chris: We used to get some nice
people on it. Met Terry Jones

from Monty Python. Monty Python?
Yeah.

Gary: For being a comedian. He's
an excellent comedian, but he's

also an excellent historian and
really takes the medieval times

seriously.

Chris: Yeah, Yeah, you're right.
He was doing something. He's

he's really right now. So he
wants to use an image from a

book. I checked the book and it
wasn't the right period. It was

a piece of armour. Yeah. So I'm
back in the other room and

cannot see always. And he's a.

Gary: Nice.

Chris: But kind of. Yeah.

Gary: For Henry V or movie or.
Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. So he was doing a
play and one of his complaints

was to chat about the armour.
And it's quite amusing because I

said, we're talking about when
men were wearing complete war

torn words and uncovered the
armour. It was all still on

shirt. Yeah. So had try to look
into funny. Some of you were. So

how do you how would you know
who was hiding? So if you were

the hero of rank, you obviously
had to ban all kinds of own

subjects. You would have you
find that very close story. You

know, it's as if you remember
the film. If you go some George

Patton is not the coat of arms,
but these kinds of troops. And

he's galloping very close behind
and very similar to some of his

version. The other one was
during the

is was extremely gruesome.

So for those who can yeah.

Gary: Like it it brings us in to
the other topic a few years ago

and it's probably about ten or
more now. There was a show in

America here it was on the
Discovery Channel called The

Conquerors. And you were one of
the historians on that show for

at least one episode. I know.
How did how does that come about?

Did they contact you through
your royal armouries?

Chris: Because they come to you
just through the armory. You

spoke to us? I honestly can't
remember. I'm pretty sure it

must have been through the
armories. We did get a lot of TV

companies in Ireland from
companies we contacted for

information or whatever, and
then sometimes they'd say, Why

are you interested in doing part
of the series? Or so? And so we

did that particular programme.

Gary: That the only one you were
a part of, or have you done

other TV shows?

Chris: Yeah. Or did that one the
first History Channel. I did one

for the Yesterday channel, which
was very similar. They did a

very good a series called
Instruments of Death, which is

nice. And so they started to
sort of talk to your group. So

that was a good one. I did again,
it was on

1066, just happened between when
they asked me to do it. Yeah.

And, but yeah, we did. I did
some Braveheart. I came to the

Armouries convention and hoped
two or three sessions to very

close to the Roma specialists.
We did a lot of work on costumes

and armor. Let's say it was 40,
43.

Gary: So you give all this
expert advice to them and in the

end it's a movie that they have
to make and you know, they have

budget constraints as well. So
how much of your advice do they

take and what the period looks
like and what the armour or the

clothing would look like?

Chris: It's not because some,
some of it they're almost

forwards. Court Well, I'm sorry,
I can't say a lot more. Yeah.

Gary: So it's just whatever they
had in the wardrobe at the time.

Chris: Yeah. Then I can do this
is what you do for her as well,

which was nice to send me the
list of all the currencies. Oh,

so did the gang, Harry the
Princess. You know, the level of

interest in credit cards is
usually so, so, so, so, so

violent.

Gary: Yeah. Or Marceau.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it
was a good starting point to do

design to dress specifically.
Most of us are designing the

dress for the Princess of Wales.

We didn't choose the heraldry,
so it's quite nice. I think I

would have liked to have exactly
as own design because quite a

few of the characters were
fictional names, because it can

come up with coats of arms and
we can lose those. And one of

them was a character called On
the Bottom of the not so kind of

different with what I would call
So with all the girls. Yeah, I'm

going to tell really you. It's
perfect for me. It was a it was

a good film, but obviously it's
been criticised by historians

who grew very authentic.

Gary: Yeah, well for me there's
a fine line between an enjoyable

movie that's based on the
historical period and if you get

if you get too accurate, then it
becomes a documentary and you

don't have, you know, the
blockbuster money or the

blockbuster actors in it. So
it's they want to make a movie

that makes money and is, you
know, action and and things like

that. So it's always a fine line.
They got to pick and choose what

to be accurate about.

Chris: This is it's you know,
it's one of those things you you

hope to be able to

resist is a lot of fun when
you're you're involved with it.

Of course, you just have to take
her to work. Yeah. I think a

couple of years of summer, I got
involved with Ivanhoe, which was

a BBC series, which was I'm
pretty sure it's been Simon

straight. So at least it's some
pretty good.

Gary: Yeah, it's available. Yep.

Chris: Even more than two series.
Yeah, I did. I was actually the

historical advisor on that nice
trip, you know, that was. How do

you get used to. Probably not
used to coming on and you're

looking very, very happily
Richard. You, you're used to

talking about 60% of the time.
Drones are extremely nice. Yeah.

Were very nice. Good was
interesting thing to work on

moments on the set because it
was not how we were left or what

was the jousting, which was fun.
Yeah, we got a lot to do. It was,

it was, it was supposed to be
like 12th century movie using a

two parter, which was new
paintings of the 15th century or

so, really be grammar. And then
you got a book which was written,

which was historically
inaccurate, and you had to make

it accurate without getting away
from the book. But it was very

enjoyable to read both. But it
did you enjoy that? You got to

meet the actors and, you know,
James Coburn people obviously

can.

Gary: It's been the nineties,
1990s. I found a book, two books

by Osprey Publishing. One was
Hastings and 66 and one was

Medieval Siege Weapons or
Warfare, and both were written

by you. And that was my
introduction to, I guess, you

and your books. So what made you
want to share your knowledge

through books after or probably
while you were still working at

the Royal Armouries?

Chris: The work, I think because
I been writing articles

that I've seen, books were the
to behind the books, you know,

these huge books and not
necessarily the sounds. And

because as you say, your work,
you haven't really got time to

go instead of the academic works.
So let's have a go. So I

contacted the editor and went to
see and in the end were

commissioned to produce the
first one, which was the German

made me promise, okay, we need
to produce that one. And then

the next organ was the
children's book, not Atonement,

which has been of no interest
and no return was brought to

bear and works through your back.
Yeah,

I still do. Then I must say
there are a lot better now than

they used to be. And then I
think we came up to one A

probably. Yeah.

Gary: So there was a show on the
History Channel here a few years

back called Full Metal Jousting.
Oh, did you watch that?

Chris: Yeah, I was very cringed.

Gary: Every time you watch those
guy is.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It was very
important but it's probably not

dissimilar to some but it was
interesting to watch what

happened. Yeah, they actually
tried it for real.

Gary: Yeah. Yeah. So those guys,
I don't think I think they

walked away and they didn't do
it again.

Most of your books range in
variety from different subjects,

but a lot of them are on knights
and medieval knights. What does

it take to become a medieval
knight? Do you have to be born

as a prince? Do you know
nobility, or can anybody become

a knight?

Chris: I mean. Oh yeah.
Originally you were ten when it

first started, so I imagine you
would have been a soldier with

enough money to have at least a
horse and some reasonable armor

because you're going right back
to pre 66. You're into France.

But the first couple of

encounter when Knight was the
recruiting and recruiting

soldiers around them to protect
the streets. Right. Right. And

these were big men become what
we call knights the Kosovars

because they got most of the
ship out because it was going to

come to England with the
conquests that did come through

the Anglo-Saxon, because that's
the words I use for serving and

that's what you see these people.
So you would you would have to

have enough money to bring the
least in possession of a horse

and decent armor with a sword.

And then that becomes more or
less the standard too. So if you

can have this amount of reward
and of course you might go

through the basic right up to
the kingdom because the King's

Knights as well. But of course
in England, that's one aspect.

In France you're going to bit
more. It's got to always be like

perhaps in Germany you could
these certain points in history,

all of this. So it's a bit
different wherever you go in

Europe, Then in England we
become a 12th century into the

13th, the 14th century, you can
from the start to become sort of

I suppose they start to
themselves into government

positions because they become
free persons in the third

country enough to become
educated. They can become sort

of more elevated in that
position. And then once they

start to earn money, then let's
see, the three landed wealth

becomes less important and
monetary wealth becomes more

important. Can we've got the
money behind them and they can

acquire not well. So as you
start getting to the late of the

increase, you're even getting
people with peasant background

that they can become lots and
lots of the products on all

parts of the you know, we've got
the position, but they're not

actually going out of it. So
it's not an easy question, just

answer. Yes, right. You were
talking sort of being a scholar.

It's not to saying, hey,
somebody follows the box and

then gets more and more.

Gary: Yeah. So you just go apply
for the job and get accepted.

Chris: You get if you look at
the temporary record schools and

just think before noticing the
citizens saying, you know, I

know where all these people to,
you know, you saw good

backgrounds have been trying to
become monks because that's not

what you read on the real
because if just going to be

servants, you come separately.
So you go crazy. Of course, as

you go up in the ranks of scorns
your friends converts as not to

becomes expensive and becoming a
Nikes and all the equipment

becomes more expensive and then
the actual process of becoming a

monk through the act, not to
renew the paraphernalia. So it's

very expensive. And then the
duties that you have as where we

have to continue to show
recruits the, you know, the

accounts of your law degree or
two thirds of parliament. When

that starts up in the 13th
century, more have to attend

parliament. So you've got all
these duties as well and people

still think you not to be
invited to living blooming year.

So they stop talking. And their
idea became this of the 13th

century. The combatants thought
so and we need need the record

of the troops not see the troops.
So we saw force ignites you know

people come in come behind with
a certain right. They must be

nice and it's called destructive.
Not good. We've got to be made

into a not so as a result, of
course, we have to become even.

We'll be heard in the time of
the results of what we do. You

know, I think you might not like
who's destroying these links

suggests the story is concerned
by that. It's being put into

linked to public religion. And
then of course, you know, so so

sometimes you get these scores
and you go through the Middle

Ages, you never become knights.And
the score becomes of whether an

honourable ranking. So when you
get scores, it's not so a

perfectly good fighting me just
not not because I don't.

Gary: Want I don't want the
responsibility.

Chris: You know exactly. And
then at the end of the Middle

Ages and then later on they
become the school or what do you

think of as the country school?
And I think this is probably if

you're you do children's books,
you find references that ones

who were really looked at
through cup drawn, you have the

place, the school at the moment
and that's a specific rank. Yeah.

So there are four or 500 years
of history. It doesn't stand

still. Ye.

Gary: In your research, did you
ever come across one night that

kind of stood out that maybe is
your favourite night of all the

ones you've seen.

Chris: Or was right? William
Marshall Yeah, because he was

such, such a turn to come from
with the landless youngest son

River winding up his route into
the ground is proved a pretty

great achievement. You must
agree. Yeah.

Gary: He's got his. Hi whole
biography is amazing. That's the

way he started out and the way
he finished up. He served four

or five kings and then.

Chris: And the stories going on.
I mean, there's, you know,

without without the biography,
there is some very disquieting

mixture. Right over the course
of the early tournament

because he attended so many
children's records, a lot of his

early money from ransoms from
the tournament. So you get some

of these these nice stories and
you realize that chivalry is not

what we think it's all about to,
you know, having dinner in the

during the tournament, your
prize was one of the knights

from the opposing side. Is this
going on for some places like or

just runs out holes in me and
gives into his dinner companions

and says here you are. Your girl
is a

girl who's broken.

Then another time some of these
these some singing in front of

the ladies, waiting for the
opposing team to come out.

Because this is in the case of
the Greek group. Back to them.

You know, it seems hard to
recall the jousting niceties.

The Greeks started to come on
loan and this John gruesome

minstrel makes up a song. Vines
is more forgiving. A good horse

thief is the thing. The opponent
starts to appear more just jumps

on his horse and knocks one of
his or gets to the mounts and

brings in and gives into the
minstrelsy. So, you know, the

process of this is really
through the good stuff. So he's

obviously good, nice, if you
know what I mean. In that sense,

it was vulnerable in that sense
in the eyes of period. But, you

know, I think it's very similar
to some of the things he's done,

but it starts with going up from
the night and is perfectly

acceptable for many who takes
the money. He goes off to

further to 40 and gets captured
as a young man. And Rebecca

taking ransoms and brings him
into the attention of the second.

And then he's given the young
King Henry for some college. And

of course, he took some mental
illness and he suffers at the

foot of the counter from his
home, uses this trick of hanging

back the rebels 40 times and
then rushing into a Christian

school as he tries to make it
that they're not really taking

part at all within the young
group or his group. And then he

rushes in and takes it like a
prisoner, which I think is not

very sport and grisly in
Scotland.

But yeah, some of the courses
like it goes off when the young

king goes to the holy games, for
the young King's wish comes back

Henry to King Henry as a symbol
gives him the address of order

of his ability to burn your
daughter, and then Henry dies.

Richard The whole revolt takes
him on through something

opposing because it come against
him just as where your son lives

the whole time because you're
such a warm person. And then the

third is just great. It's all
learned from that. Marriage

eventually comes, and because of
the marriage there is that also

he gets the violence of his own
family, becomes King's moral

issue because of his brother. So
there's an incredibly well. And

then, of course, Richard dies,
as you said, Remember Queen John

comes and the queen negotiates
with the barons within the realm.

And then, of course, John dies,
then to defeats the rebels and

the French are listened to, the
house pushes them out. So these

regions under

the third region, tycoon Henry
becomes a tenant for 12 months

and then goes in the temperature
of the water. And I love your

life. Written about some time.

Gary: He did a lot of
tournaments and you know,

nowadays we see in kind of like
about full metal jousting. The

tournaments we see now are like
these just high octane, high

energy lances exploding and
things like that. Was that what

a medieval tournament was like
or what what did a medieval

tournament look like.

Chris: When when they started? I
mean, we've we've touched on

pretty much women brutally
starts to pick battles over

morals of countries of the good
luck was in a few of them in

America we still have these
things on cruise for cruise the

coping mechanism themes of love
is warmth. Yeah

might be set over specific areas
of crime. Two teams of knights

careering around with foot
soldiers and fatalities. So

weapons are the really highly
dangerous stuff. They were

starting to be a bit more
controlled, but this is in the

12th century. We started being
more controlled and you start to

see people individually joust
with Francis, the great practice

with and this is what we started.
Oh, that's really good for

Batman. And of course you could
get ransom. So it was great

getting rich and finding a
monster. He wanted to lord to

tournament because this is where
people come into.

It was good. If you could fight
singing, you could show his

world from the beginning because
your friends without being

interfered with for work angles
and risk became increasingly

popular. Then people started
using guns, Nazis, locomotives

fitted with these chromed
coronet crown points which

spread through central point. So
it was it's of course, of course

the still dangerous. So very
dangerous, very low barrier.

It's all of still young from as
I say. So if you have a powerful

horse you can actually write
down pretty much if you weren't

careful. Kings used to abandon
criminals because they feared

that these are great places for
people to come together. If we

wanted to properly groom some of
them to start with or didn't

like them because they they said
it took people away from where

they wanted them to go in their
own vehicles and disappear. Not

at all, but very, very soon came
around. And then you start to

realize you're going to longer.
These things can be very useful.

First in your

cosecant cycle, you can make
your world can't hold that

spectacle and they do become
very, very vibration to this.

They become more and more

spectacular. You get these
displays of people coming

dressed in France in costumes,
and you know, they were them

very well. It even started in
the tournament, not in the back

of the hands. Announce the Lord
is on the field is, my God,

these are wearing bras and
rampant. You know, girls raped

you know, these things sort of
take off in a big way and you

get people wearing all sorts of
gifts up erm know

costumes and such. Erm you can
sometimes actually sort out

varieties and rules being set up
so that you run so many runs of

three or five equivalents that
they might be required to do. So.

The first was committed to
judges, marshals in the this. So

it's coming heads to that much
more with rules and regulations.

I think these programs and you
might do this in your courses in

respect your go lavish

arrangements that you would sort
of go out the mounts in these

erm spectacles is going to take
place in a certain place at a

certain time, like about by
chance maybe two or three, three

one 6 seconds. So it's like a
ticket to come to this. So the

sacrifice place the certain time,
some of the things are what we

call round tables with the
bicycle can now offer from the

Windsor. I think I found great
archaeological remains. Round

table

three re-enact not just the
chance to decrease the cycle

will resume present interest.
There's lots of round table

reasons I with the help of the
court, has dome holding the

panels where woman would hold a
piece of ground against all

comers and markets. If you truly
want the function in the course

of the shepherdess we took the
shepherdess with a flock of

sheep with became, you know, to
be dressed up and the good

nights, the children's elves and
goodness knows, look all sorts

of fancy items. Come on. So it
was, it was all done for real

extremes for this as time went
on,

Burgundy was a great place for
it, which included all of our

countries birds, foxes. We come
from the Moroccan places. It was

it was quite spectacular.

Gary: And sounds like it evolved
into kind of more of a like I

say, a spectacular show, you
know, an entertainment for

everybody to enjoy.

Chris: Yeah, it was it was it
was still dangerous. I mean, the

very turn to the 15th century,
it was so possible for you to

just

sit out in the tunnels with show
weapons if you wanted to show

your skill or bravery. Yeah, you
could even joust sieges, sieges

with or, you know, the tests
that we could go to a local

person just on the cruise
because we made some.

So you could, you could still
joust with assault weapons or

drunk. And so then you could
still just in your confusion,

have to always joust with the
barrier. You can walk now I

still have to. Agree to the kind
of rumbling the group from.

There that was still part of the
tournament. So this was all part

of the whole spectacle, you know,
jousting and various types of

the Germans came up with lots of
different courses, especially

the 15th century. Maximilian had
lots of different forms for

different sorts of courses, some
of them with exploding shields

on screen.

Gary: With the danger that's
involved in the tournament, are

there any recorded deaths of
high ranking nobles that may

have changed the course of
history with them dying in a

tournament?

Chris: You know, some of them
did. Coming from one of the

schools sons was about on
Geoffrey's front. 300 was near

the castle going out to the
period and was great, very king.

So from version splinters from
this is this is pre-school this

is where the polka dots with the
splinters I'll call it dangerous

of course when the chances are
very went into the hermits and

they were really worried.
Luckily some of them got to go

under the second the cross was
killed in the tournament. Part

of the accident that the Romans
again saw the through the guns

could still be very, very
dangerous.

Gary: I can't imagine what the
knight who ends up accidentally

killing a king in a tournament.

What's the repercussion? First
the guilt and then, you know, is

everyone out after her?

Chris: Yeah.

Gary: So besides tournaments,
were they able to use their

training and keep it honed? What
did their training look like as

they became a knight? Was it a
lot of, you know, sword work?

Was it a lot of combat sparring,
things like that? Or how did

train to become a I guess, a
better knight or Knight?

Chris: Yes. I mean, this is the
is training with weapons to

build up their muscles, really,
and to get used to it. So they

were trained double get used to
the point where the power which

is near post would track hacking
your nerves like a train against

other schools or was trying
against not not second gear for

the queen to probably see these
really basic reconstructions

which you know I could no longer
be just a place for her where

she can swing or pivoting. What
were the vital organs which you

control and stroke from those
back to the lungs. You can from

one another, not on foot with
the shield. If you're going the

lungs trying, looking for his
food and you would go as a

scorer, you would actually have
to come to your right to back to

the old tournament and you have
to put in after the person who

was injured. You have to get
used to being in danger because

you could do so much longer, you
know, So.

Gary: They got on the job
training.

Chris: You know, it wasn't just
a courtyard piece. Please, time

to do something. You got to go
on the hunt within you. That's a

if you're planning on what sort
of opportunity you might have to

dress in, you have to. It's like
you got to learn how to on

properly

60 to 30. So you tactically then
have to come up to you. And it

was if the question the
community believe in the name

was coming from the cave because
of the moment or things like

that. So it was, you know, so go
down the scale, the school as a

code. Tell you what it is. I
mean, this is something you

couldn't. And you were skilled
in doing this in front of your

door. And it was all part of
learning the duty in the minds

of your rank.

Gary: So it's more than just
combat and swordplay. It's all

the court etiquette and this
that go into to be in the night.

Chris: I think, you know, we're
talking about sort of the

ordeals of Martin period when we
were talking about the Grecian

mark Suffolk in the 12th century,
sort of the coast is this kind

of like William the Conqueror,
because, you know, we're talking

about the big scope of the
period.

Gary: They evolved a lot. But in
the 300 year period.

Chris: Yes, because we don't we
don't really talk about chivalry

as we understand this until
really the 12th century, I

suppose, at the earliest.
Probably not to the later part

of the 20th century.

Gary: So we always know that a
knight carries a sword. It's

kind of their symbolic weapon.
What other weapons would they

carry into battle or just train
with?

Chris: Certainly the sword,
obviously a double edged sword

with the more pointed as you get
more and more current to all

that, because it's useful for
thrusting into the joints,

because if you try and cut the
grass, it's just going to slide

or something more sharp or shock
would point to those. So

and so your lances, if you're so
nice, is because lace is a

useful percussion where they
would break into your normal

career or your bones very modern,
very like. And because mode is

flexible, this is really the
reason that people have a shield.

You could pretty big shield to
protect yourself, which always

amuses me in some films where
people wearing my shields being

dangled away so somewhere will
work the sword heroically. I

think this was choreographed. I
think if you were in a real room,

move back to the country. Yeah,
that's a nice reading of Sword

even. And it didn't cut through
the mail because nobody's is

going to look straight into your
body if you're going to sit and

interact with the world in the
European continent. Looking to

the Atkinson,

you know, it's got to do serious
damage, which is why this sort

of right or wrong, because it's
solid protection as a sphere.

And once you focus on the
protection of the front, you

don't need the shield. That's
the reason you really don't have

a shield. Sometimes the whole
stack breaks for protection. So

if you when you're not dressed
with something where you got a

shock of about 60 knows about
crazy screen, if you haven't got

the suit on, then you can use
other weapons. So you can go the

reverse or you can use it
against Plato, because even if

it doesn't come through
internally, it can bend currents.

And if we get function properly,
that can lead to somebody from

moving your body properly. Then
you go back not from being hit

on my head hurt, but I basically
feel the helmet on could start

off initially for them to get a
second blow. Well, you really

you've got access depending on
what period we're talking about.

Short axes for use on horseback,
longer hind legs, as if you're

on a cruise. And of course, once
you don't use the shield, you've

got two heads, right. So now you
can use weapons Polacks complex,

which is I'm not saying parallax,
it's like Kovac's because it is

cold from the pole crank the
word for head, which is called

pole Axe

swinging burns, which is of
course where Hope, which is very

similar,

doing swinging burns. And these
can deliver incredibly powerful

burns.

Amazing. You've got some food
for in tonight's photons combats

against the Nazis. They often
use a in combat you'll see they

use your location see and turn
your classical person who yeah.

Gary: They look fancy.

Chris: And you can really quite
dangerous because if you're not

careful swing rather yeah

I think sometimes in the
beginning of the time these

things we tend to see that very
often in various groups because

I you know, I find quite often
the place weapons where they

have caused all colleagues who
look back all the time. I come

from functional. So I'm always a
bit wary of these ones not and.

Gary: And even one of the key
pieces of equipment for the

night is his horse. Was there a
certain type of horse that they

looked for? I mean, you
obviously need something that

can carry weight in this fast.
So was there a specific breed

that they looked at.

Chris: In the were very, very
used to ride over the course of

the course because it was
especially great for the

orchestra, which was the other
word for it was pretty close. It

was to do with the right hand
side, the right word comes from

the motor. He means is because
it was like on the right or not

or what you could wants Congress
to hear. But these were the the

top breed horses used for the
Tomlinson walker because they

were specially great

rider but also to be nimble.
They're also trying to kick out

some good bones. So you know,
the last lap of the hooves. So

yeah, but they were very
colorful. So we think of because

the natural elements of Survive
horse always start with a full

on for the rest of the
competitions so we wouldn't show

our hooves. We've got more

tools to do. I think I just
worked with Hunter more than

Hunter Breed. So if you think of
in that sort of size

group, I wonder if he looks more
than just is not quite over and

we don't know our chances. We're
we're, we're not expecting great

horses even now. I'm very

close. You know, obviously the
frequencies are going to the

best of the best of my kind of
among these special breed horses

means.

Gary: That you brought up a good
point. The horse is kind of a

vulnerable piece. And then they
they had to armor it because the

knight was armored, too. So when
did they decide to put armor on

a horse?

Chris: Surprisingly, wasn't so.
But I'm pretty stoked to see the

very earliest possible creases.
And even that's just really

possibly a little bit survival

rate in the 13th century. So
it's we covered and you can see

some definitely parts of Mon
which must be pretty good. Yeah.

My it isn't as heavy as it's
possibly sometimes thought to be

because a lot of the water has
been like too thick and so it

becomes too much, too heavy. You
put it all together later, you

go right to the civil rights of
the crews. It's heavy when you

hold it, when you put it on, can
spread out. You know, your

shoulders are more aggressive. I
think people are surprisingly

good, you know, I think good,
good. Almost, if I can

tomorrow. But so obviously, a
horse is a big object. It's very,

very hot. So this kind of course
is, of course, as good as mine.

I don't think it was a hugely
common thing to see horses

covered in mud. You didn't read
about it, but a lot of them are

wearing these comparisons across,
the carcasses and possibly they

were painted. But even the cloth
itself is going to catch things

in its homes as well as being
very they're not to absorb the

sweat of the horse. So certainly
in the 12th century, you start

to see little bits of comparison.
So come to the horse in the 13th

century, you start to get full
comparisons from hunting to

pieces or horses. So you
wouldn't you would say you

really seriously stole. You
start to see the overhead poking

from the 13th century and then
it gets frenzied. The horses

start to appear more so in the
14th century, the 15th century

stones against the concrete
homes which are pretty rare

because it's a very expensive.
Most people tend to have the

sacrament of the horses known as
the full length and anything at

the front of the chest or the
most great replica, mostly with

her for the side. Yeah, you'd
have to be extremely run off to

have a sort of the king's
opening.

Gary: I got to imagine the
horses get weighed down pretty

heavily with the knight, the
saddle and then all their armor.

Chris: I mean, you know, we've
worked enormously with endurance.

The bomber, which was paraded on
the surprise news of hugely

heavy use for horses. It's clear
you run these pieces off. We

work massively, I suppose,
through an honourable friend who

thought that

it's probably a bit like the
carriage.

Gary: So once they went out on
campaign and war started, what

was their life like out on
campaign? You kind of touched it

briefly. What bits of boredom
they would call a truce and

joust. But was a campaign maybe
like an average typical campaign

looked like.

Chris: Well usually during the
months. WINTERS Yeah, you're up

to three. Okay. And the hunters
so that she was stuck in the

siege but wasn't the campaigning
season. So it would have to be

decent weather to do it. I mean,
if you're if you're unfortunate,

like a battle thousand, you're
going to be around 15th century.

You're going to be stuck in this
in a blizzard full of tobacco,

which is not the best of

group. So generally speaking,
it's going to be lots of weather.

I mean, most campaigns like
Roman came through the Citadel,

their whole homes. You didn't
fight back because these the

horribly

unpredictable. If you lost, you
could really get a real

difficulty in the over including
your lord. So the idea was he

was going to upset the other
person already destroying his

crops, hurting the peasants,
because that took away his

livelihood and it was sucking
him in the first round to the

back lower because he couldn't
protect his despised through his

people. So so that was the
easiest way to do it

without actually going through
yourself too much. Yeah, it was

very sporting to

come back soon. We could bring
them the best way of doing it.

It wasn't that profitable for
you to to lot. And the best way

of doing that was to actually
take root. Who turned into

something different. And, you
know, I think the thing was, I

mean, I didn't want people going
to churches and things like that.

So you could, you know, you
could go on campaigns, you could

you could besiege towns and
cities. And depending on what

order you were going with,
wanting to do what. Was what was

what was the upshot of this
coming home was to go with.

Gary: Them. And they had their
their squires came out with them.

Did they have a support staff?

Chris: If you are puritan
observer, you know you've got

your horse. You're not going to
be riding nuns. You got your

whole York riding horse to score
who? Squires Nonsense. Depending

on who you're talking about,
you've got very dependent arms

and your retinue, which is in
your retinue. If you're talking

about 15th century riders and
breakaway riding horses, you go

packhorse. It may be carrying
baggage

remotely, wagons coming, but
securing the on for there's all

this kind of trying to look
after your provisions. We've got

to find some kind of landmines
for people who weren't carrying

more.

Gary: The logistics have got to
be incredible to get all those

people you know they have armies
of ten 20,000 people. And like

you said, you got to have, you
know, food and tents and water

and, you know, things like that.

Chris: Going out, looking for
you're going to go from where

they're going to the 10th.

Gary: Quartermaster stayed busy.

Chris: Yeah.

Gary: So I put this out to all
our listeners and we had a few

questions come in and some we've
answered. You know, they want to

know like the weight of the
armour, which I believe you said

was about 25 kilos. But one of
them that kind of goes to the

whole fairy tale of a knight is
the knight in shining armor. And

so the question was, did knights
polish their armor, was it truly

shiny, or is that just kind of
the myth of the fairy tale?

Chris: There it was. Yeah. Yeah.
Then you have to keep it pretty

hard, right? It's got to be only
when it's not in use, it's

stored the gone, it's taken free
from rust. And you're trust me,

if you love seeing people
wearing them and after a few

hours, you're sweating. And then
you take it off. For instance,

this one's is going to be
polishing. So a rubbing, you get

that kind of. Yes. You know,
this is great because you got to

get the makeover as well. Of
course, if you've been walking

towards the conditions or
forcing you to order which round

you're going to work it all kind
of because you want the surface

to be smooth and slippery as
possible because it's not as

thick as people think it is.
It's it's tricky in the middle

where your heart is going to
come around because the top of

the where the stones are coming
in down the arms and maybe

through the sides, Rex is not
going to be discreet in the

metal because it's relying on a
slippery surface to fight the

points of light. So it's just
give them time so that this

looks so heavy. You got to layer
once. Once it comes out, it

becomes so good that you can
punch through the armour to

thicken the curtains and make it.
So I think the people said, you

don't need to worry. Most of the
people at this time, I'm sure,

are the most professional, nice,
the most excitable, not so

professional soldiers, because
the most difficult looks to go

with the do of officers for this
to actually get to the later

15th century. Normally since the
16th, 17th centuries,

people just don't want to wear
the all because they're wearing

all the two breast lengths on
top of the other. In the 16th

century warrior, the first puts
on quite heavy because they have

to withstand the bullet and you
get these proofed. But if you

have a C, I have a couple of
punched hole

holograms in the pits where they
bring proof to show that proof

against to.

Gary: Test them out.

Chris: Make sure this recognises
a very well this one stopping

further. Yeah. Really. You know
you're nervous. This is a

problem. You know, it doesn't
matter how much you pull. It's

not sort of all the stuff, you
know.

So the gradient was trying to
produce armor. That's good

enough to stop her boots and
also good enough to stop the

sword in the current. Yeah.

Gary: One of the other.

Chris: One of your.

Gary: Different kind of force. I
guess it the the the bullet

force and the piercing force.
Yeah. Your knights were all

through the Middle Ages and
that's kind of what we think of

a knight is that you know,
iconic medieval knights. When

did the decline start for
knights.

Chris: Was probably already
starting with the 15th, 15th

century. The

by the 15th century Britain that
started out with a concrete,

sturdy wooden, theoretically
solid crowns. And theoretically

over those 200 those the down of
that 1500. Theoretically, yeah.

And that was that was that was
the next six and about to 90

something like 34 and 24 Knights
of Service and others who were

too sick to drink often anymore.
Let's have a go. Yeah. So the

thought of the circle for the
15th century was used to the

case where the five or 10%, the
only was probably going

through two branches and the
rest of the times. I'm not

saying that was a lot on that.
It's also not for the Knights of

the Round because parts of 15th
century might be 8 to 1 of them

personally broken, including
other ranks. So carrying a bar

in the ranks and that one person
was not one of the race was made

of tomes regret not necessarily
knights could be scores could be

progression with Holmes. So it
was going down because there was

this increase in civil our such
as murders occurring. This

wasn't the place that often very
modern humans the things that

came out some kind of interest
in work which you know hoping to

sort of spur people to come here
again, drinks chivalric heroes.

They just go looking. They just
become more interested in

looking after their strengths.
And I think by this time, this

is

something that professionals do
with it. They can go to the wars

and the competitors taking over
much more quickly, moving

swiftly, hand over to kind of.

Gary: Move the warfare changed,
which kind of.

Chris: Folks were coming up.
Much more on the continent. And

now in England you can get sort
of pull information to the loss

of this to to go to the right to
come to you yourself with the

armour against the bullets.

Gary: Yeah. Everything they knew
and trained for was different on

the on the battlefield. So yeah.

Chris: You just literally the
captain if you were to so yeah I

was already into chronic
declines into the 16th 16th

century and the gentleman is now
coming up with the idea of the

Renaissance man that's starting
to become a sort of well, he was

returning to the spa to talk
about going to court, not to

start by a here on the
battlefield. And that's the

gentleman, renaissance gentleman.
You know, that's the future.

Gary: And that's kind of our
know today. We still have

knights, you know, and it's more
of an honorary title.

Chris: But there's still this
you know, there still is The

rank and privilege of some of
the issues is only from what we

do. You know, as you said,
nowadays, it's just because of

over movement than it was
recognition of service.

Gary: So your new book, The
Medieval Knight, I have it here.

It's it's a fascinating book and
it covers through about 300

years or so of, you know, the
evolution of the knight. It's

half of the the fun of reading
this book is the pictures that

are included in it. I think if
you get the physical book and

get the pictures with it of the
armor and the swords and some of

the old manuscript pictures. So
it's really well done in the

pictures. It just helps
enunciate what you're explaining

and what we're seeing.

Chris: I mean, I was always for
manuscript specimens. Yeah,

especially especially when it's
a character. You don't have a

lot of surviving almost to
corroborate with you. But work

out from the manuscripts what's
the required for. And that's a

fascinating experience here.

Gary: So your new book is The
Medieval Knight, and it's

available now in bookstores and
it's definitely available on

Amazon. You can get it off of
Osprey's website. So I'd like to

thank you for being on the show.
It was a great time. Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Chris: P to be here.

Gary: I like to think, Kristin,
for taking the time to talk to

us about medieval knights and
his book, The Medieval Knight,

and also I think it Osprey
publishing for setting up the

meeting. Now, as I mentioned at
the end, the book is available

now and is a must buy for any
medievalist. It's a fantastic

reference on knights, weapons
and armour over a 300 year

period. Even writers of
historical fiction or fantasy

would benefit from this book,
and the pictures are amazing and

in full color. This is
definitely a book you're going

to want to buy the physical copy.
If you're looking for a last

minute gift for the medievalist
in your life, or if you have

gift money ready to spend, look
no further than The Medieval

Knight. By Christopher Gravett.
I have links to the book in the

show Notes at medieval archives
dot com slash A4. Send your

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