MAP88: The Crusader States with Nic Morton
Gary:
Medieval
Archives
Podcast
Episode
Gary:
Welcome
back
to
the
Medieval
Archives
Podcast
,
the
podcast
for
medieval
news
,
history
and
entertainment
.
I'm
your
host
,
Gary
,
a.k.a.
the
Archivist
.
In
today's
lesson
,
we're
going
to
talk
about
the
Crusader
states
with
Nicholas
Morton
.
The
Crusader
states
were
founded
during
the
First
Crusade
,
and
the
Crusaders
conquered
the
land
and
claimed
it
as
their
own
.
There
were
four
crusader
states
established
the
County
of
Edessa
,
the
county
of
Tripoli
,
the
principal
of
Antioch
,
and
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
.
For
almost
years
,
the
crusade
of
states
grew
and
thrived
.
Or
did
they
?
Well
,
that's
why
we
have
Nick
Morton
on
the
show
.
His
new
book
,
The
Crusader
States
and
Their
Neighbors
.
His
book
looks
at
the
history
of
the
Crusader
states
,
their
creation
,
how
they
were
ruled
over
,
and
how
outside
forces
led
to
their
eventual
demise
.
The
book
is
and
technically
new
.
It
was
published
in
,
and
now
it's
getting
a
reprinting
in
a
paperback
edition
.
Nick
was
on
the
show
last
year
talking
about
his
book
The
Mongols
Storm
.
We
had
a
great
discussion
about
the
rise
of
the
Mongol
Empire
,
their
society
and
religion
,
and
of
course
,
their
great
military
might
.
If
you
haven't
heard
that
interview
,
head
over
to
medieval
archives
dot
com
slash
to
listen
to
the
interview
and
pick
up
a
copy
of
the
Mongol
Storm
while
you're
at
it
.
Before
we
get
into
the
interview
,
I
want
to
thank
Marc
H
who
came
out
with
a
fantastic
donation
to
start
off
the
New
year
and
I
lean
in
.
Also
made
a
great
donation
.
It
helps
the
show
keep
running
and
helps
keep
the
show
ad
free
,
which
is
good
for
everybody
.
If
you
have
questions
or
comments
or
want
to
suggest
a
topic
for
the
show
,
send
an
over
to
podcast
head
Medieval
archives
dot
com
.
You
can
find
the
links
to
the
Crusader
states
and
all
of
NBC's
social
media
and
the
show
notes
at
Medial
Archives
dot
com
slash
.
If
you're
using
a
new
podcasting
app
that
supports
podcasting
2.0
.
You
can
see
all
those
links
in
the
show
notes
on
your
phone
.
Let's
get
to
our
talk
with
Nick
Morton
and
hear
about
the
Crusader
states
.
Gary:
Today
,
we're
joined
again
by
Nick
Morton
,
who
is
going
to
talk
to
us
about
the
Crusader
states
.
And
he
was
on
previously
when
we
talked
about
the
Mongols
Storm
.
So
,
Nick
,
thanks
again
for
joining
the
show
.
Nic:
Well
,
thank
you
for
having
me
.
Gary:
Okay
.
So
your
new
book
.
It's
a
new
book
.
Your
book
out
is
Creator
States
of
Their
Neighbors
,
which
was
published
in
as
a
hardback
,
and
now
it's
out
as
a
paperback
for
everybody
to
buy
.
The
Crusader
states
were
set
up
after
the
Crusades
.
But
before
we
get
to
that
,
let's
just
do
a
quick
overview
of
how
the
Crusades
began
and
then
why
those
states
were
set
up
.
So
what
led
to
the
Crusades
?
Nic:
Yes
,
sure
.
So
Nic:
the
first
crusade
began
in
and
scholars
have
debated
for
years
why
exactly
the
Pope
launched
a
crusade
.
One
major
reason
which
is
frequently
discussed
is
the
ongoing
invasions
of
the
Seljuk
Turks
,
who
had
conquered
much
of
the
Middle
East
and
were
expanding
into
Anatolia
,
which
at
this
time
was
part
of
the
Byzantine
Empire
.
And
the
appeals
for
help
from
Western
Christendom
sent
by
the
Byzantine
Empire
.
That's
one
possible
reason
other
historians
have
cited
the
Pope's
desire
to
end
infighting
in
Western
Christendom
and
to
divert
warriors
away
from
their
internal
quarrels
into
adventure
.
From
the
Pope's
perspective
,
at
least
,
was
deemed
to
be
a
purposeful
mission
.
Other
factors
have
been
suggested
,
including
a
desire
to
provide
an
outlet
for
violence
,
particularly
because
this
is
it's
Christianity
,
of
course
.
This
is
the
religion
of
turn
the
other
cheek
and
do
good
to
those
that
hate
you
.
And
it
was
deemed
by
the
pope
at
the
time
or
the
church
at
the
time
that
fighting
amongst
Christians
was
irredeemably
sinful
.
But
at
least
for
the
church
in
these
years
,
fighting
along
Christendom
borders
against
non-Christians
would
be
much
,
much
more
acceptable
.
So
there's
that
possible
factor
in
the
pope's
thinking
around
this
.
And
underneath
it
all
,
perhaps
the
fact
that
Christendom
was
growing
in
population
numbers
and
economic
heft
,
which
gave
it
the
ability
,
not
necessarily
the
motivation
,
but
the
ability
to
think
on
that
kind
of
scale
.
And
so
in
,
the
pope
launched
the
crew
safe
.
A
year
or
so
later
,
a
series
of
armies
began
to
leave
not
just
one
big
one
,
but
lots
of
armies
.
And
the
first
few
armies
did
incredibly
poorly
on
the
battlefield
.
At
least
were
destroyed
.
But
then
a
much
larger
army
advanced
through
the
Byzantine
Empire
,
through
Anatolia
,
that's
modern
day
Turkey
,
and
then
into
Syria
and
ultimately
the
Holy
Land
.
And
they
went
on
to
conquer
Jerusalem
itself
.
As
that's
the
history
,
very
briefly
,
of
the
First
Crusade
and
the
Crusader
states
was
set
up
,
built
around
the
cities
and
towns
,
conquered
during
the
course
of
the
First
Crusade
.
Gary:
They
spend
two
or
three
years
conquering
the
holy
lands
.
They
get
to
Jerusalem
,
they
conquer
that
,
and
then
they
decide
to
stay
.
How
did
they
cut
out
the
lands
for
the
Crusader
states
?
There
were
four
of
them
.
How
they
decide
what
crusader
states
they
were
going
to
be
and
how
did
they
pick
their
rulers
.
Nic:
Okay
,
so
it
wasn't
exactly
planned
.
They
didn't
come
together
and
sort
of
work
this
out
.
It
was
more
a
case
that
individual
crusade
commanders
,
whether
by
invitation
or
following
the
conquest
of
a
major
city
,
decided
to
claim
the
area
for
themselves
.
And
then
they
set
about
conquering
as
much
surrounding
land
as
possible
.
And
the
sort
of
the
territorial
coherence
of
the
crusader
states
emerged
from
that
.
From
the
outset
,
at
least
,
it
wasn't
a
very
likely
looking
venture
because
in
the
wake
of
the
first
crusade
.
Well
,
if
you
go
back
a
little
bit
,
in
fact
,
the
main
armies
of
the
first
crusade
that
advanced
across
Anatolia
all
the
way
ultimately
to
Jerusalem
started
off
being
around
100,000
strong
.
By
the
time
they
got
to
Jerusalem
,
it's
probably
around
20,000
strong
.
So
the
attrition
of
the
first
crusade
is
staggering
and
the
survival
rate
is
very
,
very
low
.
Now
,
admittedly
,
not
everyone
died
who
ceased
to
be
part
of
the
crusade
by
the
time
it
reached
Jerusalem
,
some
deserted
or
left
,
but
nonetheless
very
,
very
high
casualty
rates
.
And
so
it's
really
just
this
sort
of
spearhead
of
troops
that
reaches
Jerusalem
and
then
the
wake
of
the
very
brutal
conquest
of
Jerusalem
.
The
vast
majority
of
those
go
home
.
Actually
,
the
chroniclers
tell
us
that
only
a
few
hundred
soldiers
left
in
Jerusalem
.
Maybe
a
slightly
larger
number
in
Antioch
and
also
in
Edessa
,
which
are
the
other
two
big
cities
that
will
become
crusader
states
in
the
long
term
.
But
it's
not
a
very
promising
looking
position
.
If
you
sort
of
view
from
a
pragmatic
level
in
those
early
years
,
but
there
are
factors
that
play
out
in
the
Crusaders
interests
.
The
first
is
that
when
news
arrives
in
Western
Christendom
that
Jerusalem
has
been
conquered
,
then
this
begins
a
process
of
movement
by
which
settlers
,
pilgrims
,
crusaders
in
thousands
,
probably
tens
of
thousands
every
single
year
set
out
for
the
Holy
Land
,
sometimes
to
visit
the
holy
sites
and
return
in
many
cases
to
settle
permanently
.
As
that
sort
of
builds
up
the
population
,
which
is
works
in
favor
of
the
early
rulers
of
the
Crusader
states
.
Another
factor
that
plays
out
in
their
favor
is
that
they
focus
their
military
attention
in
the
early
years
on
the
big
coastal
cities
.
And
these
are
big
ports
.
And
those
big
ports
not
only
just
bring
in
reinforcements
in
Western
Christendom
,
but
they
also
enable
Italian
merchants
and
other
merchants
to
trade
in
those
ports
in
a
treaty
already
.
But
of
course
,
the
key
point
is
that
the
crusader
states
and
territories
can
then
tax
that
trade
,
and
that
becomes
the
economic
sort
of
foundation
stone
for
them
and
then
swinging
things
round
.
There's
actually
a
significant
lack
of
resistance
to
the
Crusaders
in
their
early
years
,
particularly
in
Syria
,
because
in
Syria
,
these
are
the
Western
margins
of
the
Seljuk
Sultanate
,
which
spans
from
the
borders
of
the
Central
Asian
steppe
all
the
way
through
Persia
.
That's
modern
day
Iran
,
Iraq
,
Syria
.
It's
an
enormous
empire
and
it
can
marshal
some
big
armies
in
fact
,
some
seljuk
commanders
did
marshal
some
big
armies
to
fight
the
crusaders
during
the
first
Crusade
.
But
the
Seljuk
Sultanate
is
in
a
state
of
civil
war
,
and
in
fact
,
a
multi-layered
civil
war
.
Is
a
civil
war
being
fought
over
who's
going
to
be
the
next
sultan
?
But
there's
other
civil
wars
taking
place
in
the
provinces
as
well
.
All
of
this
makes
it
quite
difficult
to
unify
resistance
against
the
crusaders
or
Franks
as
they
became
known
.
And
so
whilst
there
are
some
attempts
made
to
dislodge
the
Franks
from
their
sort
of
early
landholdings
,
they
don't
prove
to
be
very
successful
.
And
in
fact
,
you
have
some
advocates
or
one
particular
advocates
for
jihad
against
the
Franks
.
And
he's
very
much
saying
in
his
book
,
look
,
they're
white
,
they're
they're
not
that
strong
.
We
need
to
move
now
.
But
the
political
will
is
just
not
there
in
the
way
that
it
would
need
to
be
in
order
to
make
that
move
.
And
all
of
that
helps
the
Crusader
states
.
Most
resistance
is
shown
to
the
Crusader
states
and
the
early
years
,
at
least
from
Egypt
,
which
is
an
empire
called
the
Fatimid
caliphate
.
But
even
though
they
send
some
big
armies
into
the
southern
borders
of
the
kingdom
of
Jerusalem
,
which
is
the
southernmost
crusader
states
,
those
armies
fare
particularly
well
on
the
battlefield
.
And
it
has
to
be
observed
that
by
the
time
they've
got
through
two
or
three
years
of
crusade
,
followed
by
lots
of
conflicts
that
followed
it
,
the
armies
that
are
left
,
albeit
small
,
they're
incredibly
competent
on
the
battlefield
because
they've
worked
together
for
years
and
they've
built
up
their
knowledge
and
skills
that
veteran
warriors
and
very
hard
to
defeat
.
Gary:
If
there's
only
a
few
hundred
or
thousand
against
an
entire
population
,
they
just
didn't
couldn't
coordinate
to
make
a
resistance
to
get
the
land
back
.
Nic:
It's
interesting
,
the
local
the
underlying
population
is
mixed
.
So
in
this
area
,
you've
probably
got
you've
got
large
Christian
and
Muslim
communities
across
the
Middle
East
and
then
smaller
groups
of
other
religious
groups
such
as
Jewish
communities
or
even
Zoroastrian
communities
.
But
while
some
are
hostile
to
the
Franks
,
not
all
of
the
Bedouin
work
with
or
some
Bedouin
groups
work
with
the
Franks
,
who
are
very
early
stage
as
to
some
sort
of
smaller
Turkish
rulers
.
So
it's
it's
never
quite
as
simple
as
sort
of
just
Christian
versus
Muslim
.
It
can
be
a
great
deal
more
complex
than
that
on
the
ground
in
the
sort
of
the
mix
of
alliances
that
takes
place
for
the
vast
majority
of
the
population
.
As
long
as
the
crusaders
or
Franks
leaves
them
alone
,
they're
normally
prepared
to
pay
their
taxes
,
as
it
were
.
And
so
a
sort
of
status
quo
develops
is
not
that
either
.
Everyone
sees
it
as
being
ideal
,
but
nonetheless
,
it
kind
of
works
.
Gary:
So
how
did
they
govern
?
They
pay
their
tax
,
as
you
say
,
and
then
the
crusaders
,
left
them
alone
.
So
the
demographics
have
to
be
mainly
local
population
.
How
did
they
get
on
with
the
Franks
as
they
were
governing
the
land
?
Nic:
Okay
.
So
it's
different
for
different
groups
.
Eastern
Christians
,
whether
that's
Orthodox
Christians
or
Syriac
Christians
or
Armenian
Christians
or
Jacobite
Christians
as
a
whole
range
of
different
Christian
denominations
in
the
East
where
the
vast
majority
didn't
fight
for
the
Franks
.
A
few
did
.
The
Armenian
groups
,
but
for
the
most
part
they
didn't
fight
for
them
,
although
there
may
have
been
some
recruitment
there
.
But
the
Franks
themselves
,
they
were
happy
to
intermarry
with
eastern
Christian
groups
.
That
happened
quite
a
lot
.
And
in
law
,
Eastern
Christians
were
granted
the
protection
of
the
law
in
the
Crusader
states
,
but
they
didn't
have
the
same
level
of
protection
as
Frankish
Christians
.
So
in
one
way
that
a
historian's
caption
the
treatment
of
Eastern
Christians
by
the
Franks
is
quite
neatly
,
I
think
,
with
the
phrase
wrath
tolerance
in
that
it's
not
equal
.
But
at
the
same
time
,
they
kind
of
get
on
and
the
historical
cross
Mckevitt
did
a
very
good
study
on
that
,
but
that
seems
to
be
about
right
.
But
there
are
lots
of
areas
where
they
they
share
things
a
little
bit
.
They
get
married
state
of
live
in
the
same
areas
.
They
share
festivals
.
In
some
cases
they
worship
in
the
same
places
.
So
they
capital
.
In
some
cases
they
do
.
So
there
is
a
degree
of
crossover
that
in
terms
of
the
Muslim
population
in
the
Crusader
states
,
it's
a
slightly
different
picture
,
A
rather
depends
on
which
particular
group
.
So
if
I
mentioned
the
Bedouin
already
,
often
they
worked
quite
closely
with
the
Crusader
states
.
And
then
you
have
some
communities
such
as
the
Nizari
,
who
are
often
known
as
the
assassins
,
and
they're
intensively
persecuted
in
the
Seljuk
Sultanate
,
who
sees
the
Nazarene
as
a
substantial
threat
.
And
so
the
Nizari
actually
take
refuge
in
the
borderlands
of
the
Crusader
states
,
but
it
always
gets
old
with
the
Crusader
states
.
But
there
is
a
reciprocal
relationship
there
.
Sometimes
they
fight
,
sometimes
they
work
together
,
sometimes
they
conduct
diplomacy
.
But
that
,
too
,
is
a
complicated
relationship
with
regard
to
sort
of
the
broader
Sunni
and
Shia
muslim
population
in
the
area
.
Again
,
in
law
,
it's
a
situation
of
legal
inequality
in
that
Muslims
have
a
protection
of
the
law
,
but
they
don't
have
the
same
level
of
protection
as
Frankish
Christians
.
And
in
many
cases
,
that
does
seem
to
have
been
an
underlying
expectation
that
provided
that
Muslim
communities
paid
their
taxes
and
didn't
rebel
for
the
most
part
,
they
would
be
left
alone
and
has
a
vested
interest
on
both
sides
to
maintain
that
kind
of
relationship
.
The
Franks
want
tax
,
and
they
don't
want
uprisings
of
the
local
population
,
want
to
maintain
their
lands
.
And
you've
actually
got
a
pilgrim
returning
from
Hajj
back
to
his
home
in
southern
Iberia
.
So
the
modern
day
Spain
.
And
he
traveled
through
the
Crusader
states
and
he
noticed
with
surprise
this
kind
of
relationship
that
provides
they
pay
the
taxes
.
They
were
generally
left
alone
,
although
it
can
be
more
complicated
than
that
in
individual
circumstances
.
Gary:
Once
they
created
these
states
.
So
the
most
of
the
resistance
was
from
the
outside
,
not
from
the
inside
of
the
Crusader
states
to
that
,
because
the
Crusader
states
are
a
small
strip
along
the
coast
.
So
there
was
big
cities
.
Damascus
is
outside
of
that
.
Baghdad
isn't
too
far
away
.
Gary:
Were
there
other
Muslim
leaders
and
warlords
who
were
trying
to
come
in
and
take
over
those
lands
?
Nic:
Yes
.
So
in
some
ways
,
the
early
history
of
the
Crusades
in
the
Crusader
states
is
a
tale
of
two
invasions
in
that
you've
obviously
got
the
Crusaders
advancing
from
the
north
across
Anatolia
,
seeking
to
conquer
parts
of
Syria
and
obviously
Jerusalem
.
But
there's
another
invasion
going
on
as
well
,
and
that
predates
the
crusade
by
war
in
Syria
,
at
least
by
a
little
over
years
.
And
that
is
that
in
around
the
year
groups
of
Turkish
nomadic
communities
began
to
move
south
out
of
the
Central
Asian
steppe
region
.
And
in
time
,
the
Seljuk
family
rose
to
lead
these
very
large
population
movements
,
which
ultimately
conquered
the
vast
majority
of
the
Middle
East
.
But
the
Seljuks
who
led
this
conquest
,
they're
incredibly
powerful
.
They
conquered
the
entire
region
and
then
displace
the
local
Arab
or
Kurdish
rulers
.
And
so
their
conquerors
too
.
And
in
the
early
years
at
least
,
that
either
they
still
maintained
that
the
early
ancestral
beliefs
of
the
Central
Asian
steppe
or
at
a
very
early
stage
in
their
conversion
to
Islam
.
So
they're
not
necessarily
seen
as
being
a
familiar
face
to
the
various
sort
of
Muslim
dynasties
and
territories
of
the
Middle
East
.
And
so
there
is
substantial
resistance
to
the
Seljuks
.
Interestingly
enough
,
in
the
wake
of
the
first
Crusade
,
because
the
first
crusade
has
proved
the
siege
economies
can
be
defeated
and
there's
a
wave
of
rebellions
following
that
.
It's
a
situation
in
the
wake
of
the
first
crusade
where
you
have
two
conquerors
,
the
seljuks
with
their
first
,
but
their
position
is
not
secure
and
the
crusaders
are
there
as
well
,
and
they've
newly
arrived
and
their
position
is
not
secure
either
.
And
so
the
relations
between
between
those
two
and
then
the
underlying
populations
underneath
both
those
ruling
factions
,
that
makes
for
a
very
complex
situation
.
And
I've
always
thought
that
one
of
the
reasons
the
Bedouin
supported
the
Crusader
states
in
their
early
years
is
probably
because
they
were
being
pushed
off
their
grazing
lands
by
the
incoming
nomadic
Turkish
nomads
who
wanted
those
lands
to
themselves
.
It's
natural
for
them
to
align
with
someone
who
might
be
able
to
get
them
those
lands
back
.
Gary:
The
Crusaders
started
out
helping
the
Byzantine
Empire
,
so
while
they
were
governing
the
Crusader
states
,
Did
the
Byzantine
Empire
come
back
and
say
,
Gary:
Hey
,
this
is
our
land
that
you
conquered
for
us
,
and
try
to
take
that
land
back
?
Nic:
Yes
,
the
Byzantine
Empire
is
the
direct
line
continuation
of
the
Eastern
Roman
Empire
.
There's
no
break
.
It's
just
the
name
changes
,
but
there's
no
actual
rift
between
as
I
know
it
.
It
ceases
to
be
the
Assyrian
Empire
becomes
the
Byzantine
Empire
.
And
so
as
a
result
,
as
far
as
the
Byzantines
are
concerned
,
they
have
a
right
to
rule
.
Much
of
the
area
and
formally
for
centuries
,
say
rural
parts
of
Syria
and
even
down
to
Egypt
and
North
Africa
.
So
the
Byzantines
do
see
this
area
as
being
historically
theirs
,
at
least
Alexius
the
first
Komnenos
.
He
was
part
of
the
call
for
the
first
crusade
,
trying
to
request
help
.
So
the
Crusaders
arrive
and
historians
have
generally
thought
that
Alexius
probably
wouldn't
have
been
particularly
pleased
by
the
sight
of
this
enormous
army
outside
the
walls
.
Yes
,
he
wanted
supports
,
but
historians
have
normally
felt
that
he
probably
wanted
two
or
professional
soldiers
who
could
seamlessly
be
integrated
into
his
army
,
rather
than
hundreds
of
thousands
of
people
with
large
numbers
of
non-combatants
who
have
their
own
ideas
about
what
they're
doing
and
where
they're
going
.
So
things
do
get
a
little
bit
tense
as
even
some
skirmishes
fought
outside
the
Byzantine
capital
during
the
First
Crusade
as
tensions
emerge
.
But
the
bottom
line
is
this
the
Crusaders
agree
to
work
with
the
Byzantines
if
they
are
prepared
to
take
an
oath
to
the
Byzantine
Emperor
.
And
the
emphasis
very
clear
on
this
,
and
in
return
the
Emperor
offers
,
offers
,
logistical
support
and
supplies
and
things
like
that
.
A
key
clause
in
that
oath
that
they're
expected
to
take
is
that
they're
supposed
to
return
any
formerly
Byzantine
territory
.
And
I
suppose
in
theory
the
Byzantines
could
expand
that
to
mean
pretty
much
anywhere
.
But
the
thing
they've
really
got
their
eye
on
is
the
territories
they've
lost
very
recently
in
Anatolia
when
they
Turkey
,
but
in
particular
the
city
of
Antioch
,
which
is
in
very
much
the
southern
borders
of
Turkey
today
.
And
so
when
the
crusaders
advance
across
Anatolia
,
they
begin
by
handing
back
the
city
of
Nicaea
,
which
they
conquered
,
that
the
Byzantines
take
Nicaea
whilst
its
being
besieged
by
the
Crusaders
,
and
then
later
the
Crusaders
move
south
towards
Jerusalem
.
The
Byzantines
follow
behind
it
,
and
with
the
Crusaders
defeating
the
various
armies
who
are
sent
against
them
,
the
Byzantines
decides
to
collect
the
lands
basically
that
the
Crusaders
are
passing
through
and
to
consolidate
,
to
conquer
any
remaining
unconquered
territories
.
And
they
regain
a
lot
of
territory
in
Anatolia
because
that
following
in
the
wake
of
the
crusading
army
.
And
so
that
works
very
well
for
the
Byzantines
.
But
things
begin
to
come
unstuck
in
that
relationship
ship
during
the
siege
of
Antioch
,
which
is
very
much
the
make
or
break
moment
of
the
first
crusade
,
the
siege
lasts
a
seven
or
eight
months
.
It's
in
the
middle
of
the
Syrian
winter
,
which
is
cold
and
wet
.
Lots
of
crusaders
die
from
exposure
or
starvation
or
other
natural
causes
alongside
military
action
.
And
although
the
Byzantines
do
send
some
forces
to
relieve
them
,
there
comes
a
point
,
it
seems
,
where
the
Byzantines
probably
felt
that
the
Crusaders
not
going
to
survive
.
And
this
is
a
very
contentious
topic
.
Exactly
what
was
going
on
in
that
conversation
isn't
clear
,
but
it
seems
as
though
the
Crusaders
on
the
verge
of
falling
apart
and
the
Crusaders
therefore
accused
the
Byzantines
of
not
supplying
them
with
the
assistance
they
require
at
the
critical
moment
where
they're
in
most
need
of
the
Byzantines
.
So
that
part
rejects
this
and
the
debate
on
that
goes
round
and
round
.
But
the
point
is
when
the
crusaders
do
ultimately
take
Antioch
,
they
refuse
to
give
it
back
because
they
sent
their
oath
to
the
Byzantine
Emperor
has
already
been
rendered
void
.
And
that
creates
a
line
of
tension
,
particularly
between
the
Franks
who
taken
rule
Antioch
becoming
the
principality
of
Antioch
.
That
creates
a
lot
of
tension
that
just
runs
and
runs
and
runs
with
the
Byzantine
emperors
who
feel
they
have
a
right
to
it
,
and
the
princes
of
Antioch
who
feel
they
have
a
right
to
it
too
,
and
other
rulers
in
place
as
so
the
other
Crusader
states
,
the
Byzantines
,
are
much
,
much
more
willing
to
be
broadly
supportive
,
provided
that
certain
conditions
are
met
in
later
years
.
So
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
and
the
county
of
Tripoli
,
which
is
essentially
the
northern
part
of
modern
day
Lebanon
and
the
southwestern
part
of
modern
day
Syria
,
relations
that
are
also
fairly
positive
with
Byzantines
throughout
much
of
their
history
.
So
it's
a
mixed
picture
.
But
the
sort
of
origins
of
that
relationship
,
we
.
Gary:
You
can't
visit
those
crusader
states
that
are
not
nations
today
.
So
what
was
the
beginning
of
the
downfall
for
them
?
How
long
were
they
states
?
And
then
where
did
the
resistance
come
from
if
it
didn't
come
from
within
?
That
started
the
downfall
of
the
Crusader
states
.
Nic:
Okay
.
Yeah
,
great
question
.
So
for
the
first
years
,
the
Crusader
states
are
on
the
front
foot
.
They
win
most
of
the
battles
.
They're
taking
territory
.
There's
various
reasons
for
that
.
The
fact
that
the
generation
of
the
first
crusade
is
still
around
and
can
pass
on
a
great
deal
of
knowledge
and
experience
seems
to
have
been
a
factor
.
Another
factor
is
that
there's
not
much
consolidation
,
particularly
in
Syria
among
the
various
Turkish
rulers
that
they
face
on
their
eastern
frontier
.
The
Franks
managed
to
defeat
the
Fatimid
empire
in
Egypt
,
many
battlefield
encounters
and
from
about
onwards
,
there's
not
much
fighting
in
the
South
,
which
consolidates
as
southern
borders
and
the
momentum
of
conquest
carries
them
forwards
where
the
franks
begin
to
come
in
.
The
difficulty
is
once
they
start
to
reach
the
borders
of
the
big
Syrian
cities
of
Aleppo
in
the
north
and
Damascus
in
the
south
.
Now
these
are
really
big
cities
by
medieval
standards
,
maybe
as
many
as
60,000
population
,
which
is
huge
by
the
standards
of
the
day
.
And
just
the
context
.
Armies
deployed
by
the
Crusader
states
in
this
era
never
got
bigger
than
about
10,000
.
So
they're
looking
at
tackling
cities
where
the
very
population
,
before
you
bring
in
any
really
reforms
or
anyone
else
is
still
six
times
larger
than
the
army
attacking
it
.
They
struggled
to
conquer
those
cities
with
their
failure
to
do
so
.
The
tide
began
to
turn
a
bit
.
That
was
sort
of
the
moment
of
which
I
believe
the
military
jargon
is
to
culminate
.
Their
invasions
culminated
.
After
that
you
have
the
beginnings
of
consolidation
in
Syria
with
the
rise
of
a
ruler
called
Ascending
.
He's
a
Turkish
ruler
and
he
manages
to
build
up
a
powerbase
across
Syria
and
the
Jazeera
,
which
is
the
area
of
land
between
the
Euphrates
and
Tigris
River
all
the
way
across
to
Mosul
.
And
with
that
big
empire
that
he's
carved
out
of
Muslim
territory
that
gives
him
enormous
military
force
,
which
tipped
the
balance
of
power
very
much
in
his
favor
.
Now
,
he's
not
that
interested
in
fighting
the
Franks
.
He
does
it
occasionally
,
but
not
very
much
.
But
nonetheless
,
it
means
there's
going
to
be
no
more
expansion
for
the
Franks
on
that
frontier
.
Nic:
And
under
his
son
called
Nur
al
Din
,
Nur
al-DIn
are
other
begins
to
make
more
inroads
on
the
acquisitive
states
,
although
it
has
to
be
something
which
because
it's
getting
more
and
more
powerful
pretty
much
until
they
fall
.
What
really
shifts
the
needle
,
as
it
were
,
is
that
Nur
al-Din
,
who
is
the
ruler
of
Syria
.
I
would
talk
now
in
about
the
1150s
,
1160s
.
He
has
two
main
clusters
of
opponents
.
Yes
,
he
recognizes
the
threat
from
the
Franks
is
that
he
also
has
various
Turkish
rivals
,
particularly
in
Anatolia
.
But
he's
also
very
keen
to
conquer
Egypt
and
Egypt's
really
,
really
important
because
Egypt
is
the
economic
powerhouse
of
the
entire
region
.
The
crops
of
the
Nile
Delta
,
the
industrial
product
of
the
big
cities
of
Egypt
,
and
Egypt's
central
position
on
the
spice
routes
across
the
Indian
Ocean
.
The
silk
roads
from
Central
Asia
,
the
Trans
Sahara
and
gold
routes
.
There's
a
lot
of
money
,
whether
through
trade
,
commerce
,
industrial
agriculture
in
Egypt
.
So
if
you've
got
control
of
Egypt
,
then
that's
going
to
substantially
enhance
your
economic
position
and
the
world
and
wants
to
conquer
Egypt
.
Now
,
it's
not
necessarily
for
Egypt's
wealth
,
it
seems
it
was
equally
as
interested
as
a
Sunni
Muslim
ruler
in
conquering
a
Shia
empire
,
which
is
the
price
of
an
empire
was
.
And
so
he
sends
a
series
of
armies
into
Egypt
.
So
too
does
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
.
And
during
the
1160s
,
a
lot
of
fighting
over
who's
going
to
rule
Egypt
.
Well
,
the
fact
that
it's
retained
control
,
will
it
be
the
crusader
states
?
Will
it
be
neutral
?
Did
the
crusader
states
and
the
Fatimids
lose
that
contest
because
no
audience
armies
do
take
control
of
Cairo
in
and
consolidate
their
position
in
the
following
months
and
yet
,
in
fact
,
neutral
didn't
doesn't
get
to
rule
Egypt
either
,
because
his
lieutenant
,
who
commanded
the
army
of
invasion
into
Egypt
,
is
a
Kurdish
commander
called
Shaka
and
should
die
fairly
soon
after
conquering
Egypt
and
power
passes
onto
his
nephew
.
Nic:
His
nephew's
name
is
Salah
ad-Din
ibn
Ayyub
.
Are
you
Saladin
?
As
Saladin
takes
control
of
Egypt
,
they
never
really
let
me
.
Whilst
he
always
acknowledges
neuralgia
in
Din's
Overlordship
,
nonetheless
,
he
pretty
much
rules
Egypt
as
an
independent
power
.
And
in
1170s
and
eighties
he
manages
to
conquer
much
of
Syria
as
well
.
After
his
Masters
death
,
Saladin
invades
Syria
and
conquers
many
towns
and
cities
from
Neurath
.
It
is
as
and
this
is
the
key
point
.
By
doing
that
,
he
builds
this
enormous
consolidation
of
power
.
Syria
,
which
can
call
upon
large
reserves
of
troops
from
the
Turkic
population
,
Egypt
with
its
enormous
economic
resources
.
And
so
you're
putting
troops
and
money
together
by
having
both
Syria
and
Egypt
that
gives
him
the
force
to
raise
enormous
armies
.
And
it's
in
the
1180s
that
he
can
really
begin
to
take
the
offensive
in
a
very
serious
way
against
the
Crusader
states
and
with
a
serious
hope
of
reconquering
Jerusalem
,
that
enormous
consolidation
of
power
that
he's
able
to
put
together
that
ultimately
destroys
the
kingdom
of
Jerusalem
.
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
continues
to
grow
even
into
the
1180s
,
but
it's
just
outmatched
by
Saladin
.
His
empire
is
growing
faster
.
And
so
in
,
at
the
Battle
of
,
Saladin
stores
an
overwhelming
victory
against
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
.
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
is
the
biggest
of
the
Crusader
states
.
The
northern
ones
can't
survive
alone
.
And
so
this
then
sees
the
substantial
demolition
of
much
of
the
Crusader
states
.
And
that
brings
to
an
end
a
chapter
in
the
history
of
the
Crusader
states
.
Although
just
to
make
things
more
complicated
,
there's
an
another
big
crusade
called
the
Third
Crusade
,
which
rebelled
to
some
extent
the
states
which
then
carry
on
for
another
century
until
their
eventual
collapse
in
.
Gary:
Saladin
takes
over
.
Egypt
is
right
below
kind
of
borders
,
the
kingdom
of
Jerusalem
on
the
south
side
.
And
if
he
takes
Syria
as
well
,
he
surrounds
the
crusader
states
.
For
the
most
part
,
he's
got
them
all
surrounded
.
They
can't
go
anywhere
except
the
ocean
or
fight
.
Nic:
That's
correct
.
Gary:
Yeah
.
The
Third
Crusade
and
Richard
,
the
first
comes
in
.
And
so
how
does
he
regrow
or
how
does
he
help
solidify
the
crusader
state
so
they
don't
fall
for
another
years
or
so
.
Nic:
Within
about
a
year
,
months
of
the
Battle
of
Hattin
,
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
has
been
reduced
from
encompassing
tens
of
cities
,
dozens
of
towns
,
huge
areas
of
agricultural
lands
,
and
many
,
many
castles
and
strongholds
.
It's
been
reduced
it
basically
to
one
city
.
That's
the
city
of
Tyre
,
a
modern
day
Syria
.
In
modern
day
southern
Lebanon
,
the
northern
crusader
states
of
Tripoli
,
Tripoli
is
reduced
to
Tripoli
itself
in
a
few
strongholds
,
Antiochus
reduced
to
Antioch
itself
.
In
a
few
strongholds
,
the
county
of
Edessa
fell
some
time
before
that
.
Saladin's
advance
is
also
has
him
very
,
very
effective
at
destroying
the
greater
part
of
the
Crusader
states
.
And
it's
clear
the
Crusader
states
are
on
the
point
of
falling
.
But
within
months
of
Saladin's
victory
and
by
the
time
that
Saladin
has
reconquered
Jerusalem
,
the
armies
of
the
Third
Crusade
are
already
being
raised
.
They're
already
gathering
,
and
they're
led
by
commanders
such
as
Emperor
,
the
first
of
Germany
,
but
at
the
second
to
France
,
and
most
famously
,
perhaps
,
Richard
,
the
first
of
England
.
And
so
these
armies
arrive
in
the
Middle
East
and
a
massive
war
begins
to
emerge
along
the
coastline
as
the
crusaders
try
to
regain
territory
and
Saladin
and
his
army
tries
to
prevent
them
.
It's
fascinating
how
a
database
in
which
they
record
every
battle
,
skirmish
and
raid
I
can
find
across
the
entire
Middle
East
between
about
hundred
.
But
in
the
years
of
the
Third
Crusade
,
which
are
basically
between
well
,
the
fighting
was
really
between
about
and
.
There's
scarcely
any
conflict
anywhere
else
except
in
a
very
,
very
narrow
bit
of
land
.
It's
remarkable
to
what
extent
the
struggle
between
Saladin
and
the
armies
of
the
Third
Crusade
drew
fighters
from
so
many
different
areas
.
There's
just
not
much
more
fighting
anywhere
else
.
And
so
there
are
some
enormous
battles
fought
in
battle
.
Richard
tends
to
do
better
around
the
negotiating
table
.
Saladin
tends
to
do
better
.
And
the
upshot
of
this
is
that
a
treaty
is
forged
in
.
But
in
that
treaty
,
the
Crusaders
do
regain
some
of
their
former
port
cities
,
but
they
don't
get
Jerusalem
.
Saladin
gets
to
keep
Jerusalem
,
and
that
is
the
compromise
that
is
settled
for
the
time
at
least
.
But
of
equal
importance
is
that
within
a
year
or
so
of
the
third
Crusades
ending
the
strain
,
the
Third
Crusade
would
have
put
on
all
all
the
commanders
involved
would
have
been
incredible
,
just
the
sheer
effort
that
would
have
required
for
everyone
involved
.
And
I've
always
rather
suspected
that
it's
just
sheer
exhaustion
that
played
a
part
in
Saladin's
death
fairly
soon
afterwards
,
in
the
wake
of
Saladin's
death
,
his
empire
falls
apart
,
or
at
least
it
falls
apart
as
a
single
unified
entity
,
as
his
brother
and
sons
take
various
different
parts
of
it
and
then
fight
amongst
themselves
and
they
fight
amongst
themselves
for
the
next
almost
years
because
they're
fighting
amongst
themselves
.
They
actually
show
very
little
interest
.
It's
very
periodic
their
interest
in
either
defending
against
or
attacking
what's
left
of
the
Crusader
states
,
which
creates
a
window
of
opportunity
for
the
crusaders
to
rebuild
their
position
along
the
coast
,
even
to
the
point
where
the
Crusaders
regained
Jerusalem
by
treaty
in
,
only
hold
it
for
about
years
.
What
ultimately
brings
about
the
fall
of
the
Crusader
states
is
,
interestingly
enough
,
nothing
to
do
with
the
Crusaders
states
themselves
.
A
new
empire
forms
in
Egypt
,
which
rises
up
.
It
takes
over
Egypt
from
Saladin's
dynasty
by
the
by
about
,
which
is
when
are
you
the
IU
but
dynasty
stallions
dynasty
in
Egypt
Falls
.
Their
armies
depend
very
heavily
on
enslaved
people
who
they
have
purchased
and
then
raised
and
trained
to
be
soldiers
.
Nic:
And
they're
called
Mamluks
.
And
these
soldiers
are
very
effective
on
the
battlefield
,
but
they
have
too
many
of
them
,
and
they
can
simply
guess
what's
coming
next
.
The
Mamluks
realized
,
well
,
actually
,
they
don't
have
to
obey
anyone's
instructions
.
And
so
they
rebelled
.
Take
over
Egypt
and
form
the
Mamluk
empire
.
So
the
mamluks
in
Egypt
and
then
to
the
north
east
,
you
have
the
rapidly
expanding
empire
of
the
Mongols
and
the
Mongols
begin
their
expansion
into
the
Middle
East
in
the
1220s
.
By
,
the
Mongols
control
the
pretty
much
the
entire
Middle
East
up
to
much
of
Syria
and
all
that's
left
of
territory
is
that
the
Mongols
are
either
control
or
have
overlordship
the
Crusader
states
which
are
fairly
small
,
not
anything
like
strong
enough
to
fight
off
the
Mongols
and
the
Mamluks
in
Egypt
.
And
a
deal
emerges
in
the
Mamluks
and
the
Mongols
last
for
years
and
there's
victory
and
defeat
on
sides
,
massive
armies
.
And
the
major
contest
is
between
the
Mongols
and
the
Mamluks
,
who's
therefore
going
to
be
the
ruler
of
the
Middle
East
,
sort
of
control
the
entire
area
.
And
it
ends
in
a
stalemate
.
But
essentially
within
that
context
,
when
the
Mamluks
are
fighting
the
Mongols
,
they
send
their
armies
against
what's
left
of
the
Crusader
state
to
the
present
.
So
it's
a
sort
of
worn
down
and
eventually
destroyed
as
a
sideshow
to
a
much
bigger
contest
taking
place
between
the
Mamluks
and
the
Mongols
.
Gary:
Stop
getting
bored
.
They
just
go
pick
on
the
Crusader
states
.
Nic:
There
may
be
an
element
to
that
because
there's
big
lulls
in
the
fighting
between
the
Mamluks
and
the
Mongols
and
the
Mamluks
use
those
lulls
to
fight
the
Crusader
states
,
and
as
you
say
,
that
would
give
them
some
very
good
training
in
siege
craft
and
battlefield
tactics
that
they
could
then
apply
to
fighting
the
Mongols
later
.
Gary:
All
the
writing
was
kind
of
on
the
wall
when
the
Mongols
come
in
from
the
north
and
the
east
,
and
then
you
have
Mamluks
in
the
south
.
Once
you're
surrounded
by
those
two
armies
and
you
only
have
a
couple
of
thousand
people
,
you're
in
trouble
.
Well
,
so
what
was
the
downfall
?
They
lasted
through
some
of
those
battles
.
The
Mongols
were
there
and
then
they
pull
out
who
eventually
took
over
those
crusader
states
Nic:
I
mentioned
.
The
big
contest
is
the
Mamluks
in
Egypt
and
later
in
Syria
fighting
the
Mongols
.
The
main
frontier
in
that
war
is
the
Euphrates
River
,
the
Mamluks
and
their
troops
against
the
states
during
sort
of
periods
of
peace
with
the
Mongols
anyway
.
But
basically
they
just
take
the
position
of
,
say
,
it's
a
pot
every
year
,
every
few
years
,
they
might
take
a
few
towns
,
a
few
strongholds
.
The
next
year
they
do
the
same
thing
because
there's
no
real
counter-offensive
.
The
Franks
by
this
stage
lack
the
numbers
to
meet
the
mamluks
on
equal
terms
on
the
battlefield
.
They
made
the
front
a
few
raids
,
but
they're
never
going
to
get
these
territories
back
.
And
by
the
late
13th
century
,
which
is
this
sort
of
era
enthusiasm
for
crusading
all
the
way
across
to
the
eastern
Mediterranean's
at
a
fairly
low
ebb
in
western
Christendom
,
so
no
big
armies
set
out
during
that
era
to
support
the
Crusader
states
.
A
few
smaller
contingents
,
perhaps
.
So
the
Mamluks
really
can
take
the
kind
of
states
apart
as
as
a
when
they
choose
.
In
fact
,
the
crusaders
biggest
card
to
play
at
the
negotiating
table
is
their
central
role
in
trade
,
their
crucial
trading
importance
,
and
the
moments
of
an
interest
in
keeping
the
trading
emporium
open
,
which
is
actually
their
strongest
argument
for
remaining
for
keeping
going
in
many
ways
.
But
yeah
,
they're
taken
apart
.
And
in
,
the
Mamluks
besiege
the
City
of
Acre
,
which
is
the
capital
city
of
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
,
and
with
the
fall
of
Angkor
,
that's
pretty
much
it
.
There's
a
couple
of
towns
left
,
but
they're
evacuated
in
the
wake
of
the
fall
of
acre
and
that's
the
end
of
the
mainland
Crusader
states
.
Although
the
island
of
Cyprus
remains
a
Catholic
kingdom
all
the
way
up
until
it
remains
in
western
Christian
hands
until
.
Gary:
I
know
for
me
,
I
always
look
at
kind
of
the
military
aspect
of
everything
,
but
what
was
the
social
and
economic
aspect
of
the
Crusader
states
that
you
said
that
they
had
a
lot
of
trade
that
was
involved
.
Did
they
build
up
these
cities
in
like
a
Frankish
way
?
Did
they
kind
of
assimilate
and
build
them
up
into
the
Muslim
near
East
kind
of
society
?
How
would
the
economics
and
society
look
like
before
everything
collapsed
?
Nic:
Yeah
,
great
question
.
And
there's
several
points
to
make
here
.
The
first
is
that
there's
a
huge
amount
of
exchange
that
takes
place
during
this
era
.
When
you
look
at
maps
and
in
some
people's
books
or
some
of
the
way
which
people
describe
this
era
,
you
would
be
forgiven
for
thinking
that
there's
a
sort
of
one
block
of
territory
called
Christian
territory
,
one
block
of
typical
Muslim
territory
and
a
line
between
the
two
,
and
that's
it
.
Recent
research
is
very
much
breaking
down
the
idea
.
I
just
to
give
you
one
idea
of
how
that
might
operate
,
there's
not
much
money
around
.
So
even
though
the
Christian
sector
to
quite
wealthy
,
so
is
Damascus
and
Aleppo
.
By
modern
standards
,
the
entire
region
is
not
particularly
wealthy
.
And
so
let's
say
that
you
are
the
emir
of
Damascus
or
the
count
of
Tripoli
or
the
queen
of
Jerusalem
or
any
any
ruler
from
across
the
area
,
if
you
will
,
to
build
a
church
,
a
mosque
,
a
palace
,
a
castle
,
the
town
walls
.
You
can
probably
do
that
just
about
.
And
so
for
two
or
three
years
,
you
will
hire
masons
and
carpenters
and
laborers
and
all
the
people
you
need
to
build
that
building
.
And
at
the
end
of
that
period
,
that's
it
.
You're
out
of
money
.
That's
the
end
.
And
so
all
those
artisans
have
to
go
somewhere
else
.
And
so
where
do
they
go
?
They
go
where
the
money
is
.
And
if
that
means
crossing
a
cultural
border
into
Christian
territory
or
into
Muslim
territory
or
Byzantine
territory
or
Armenian
territory
,
they'll
do
it
.
They
follow
the
money
.
As
a
result
,
all
these
artisans
,
not
just
the
building
stuff
,
but
also
scientists
,
intellectuals
,
theologians
,
in
some
cases
doctors
,
falconers
,
all
the
all
these
sorts
of
professionals
.
They
travel
all
the
time
and
they
travel
very
easily
from
Christian
and
Muslim
territory
.
And
of
course
,
they
don't
just
leave
their
ideas
and
technologies
at
the
border
,
they
bring
them
with
them
.
And
so
within
that
process
,
ideas
,
stories
,
technologies
,
they
get
shared
all
the
time
.
And
it's
interesting
to
see
the
architecture
of
this
era
where
you
see
distinctively
Western
European
elements
in
some
eastern
Christian
or
Muslim
buildings
and
you
see
some
distinctively
Muslim
architectural
elements
in
Christian
buildings
.
And
the
reason
they're
doing
that
is
because
they're
sharing
a
workforce
.
You
mentioned
about
the
cities
of
the
Crusader
states
,
and
here
it's
an
incredible
mixture
because
of
course
they're
inheriting
I
said
heritage
.
When
they
conquer
these
places
,
the
buildings
are
already
there
.
Some
might
get
knocked
down
or
destroyed
.
They
may
replace
them
or
augment
.
But
the
basic
building
stocks
are
already
there
.
And
that
will
be
a
mixture
of
eastern
Christian
and
Muslim
buildings
.
But
of
course
,
the
Franks
that
impose
their
own
imprint
on
that
.
And
so
where
you
might
have
a
traditional
Middle
Eastern
city
to
begin
with
,
for
example
,
one
feature
of
Frankish
architecture
is
the
like
big
town
squares
.
That's
a
distinctive
of
Italian
cities
in
this
era
,
and
they
create
that
in
the
Crusader
states
and
Italian
townhouses
have
beautiful
facades
that
emphasize
the
prestige
majesty
of
the
family
that
live
there
.
And
so
these
Frankish
ideas
and
norms
are
augmented
onto
the
existing
cities
that
the
Crusaders
conquered
in
the
first
place
.
And
so
you've
got
this
mixture
of
a
mixture
of
architecture
,
a
mixture
of
building
styles
.
And
I've
often
thought
that
if
I
could
go
back
in
time
,
it
would
just
be
the
opportunity
to
walk
through
some
of
these
cities
,
whether
that's
ACRE
in
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
or
Damascus
in
Seljuk
,
Syria
,
and
just
to
hear
the
voices
and
the
stories
and
the
things
being
exchanged
because
it
must
be
an
incredible
and
fascinating
place
with
all
these
different
cultures
negotiating
,
making
friends
,
eating
together
,
hating
each
other
,
good
or
bad
,
or
every
other
emotion
in
between
the
spectrum
and
all
taking
place
in
a
very
small
area
.
I
know
what
that
must
have
been
like
is
it's
one
of
the
things
that
fascinates
me
about
this
.
All
these
different
cultures
encountering
each
other
,
whether
for
good
or
ill
,
but
having
that
encounter
,
what
they
make
of
each
other
,
what
they
love
and
what
they
refuse
to
learn
,
it
makes
it
a
very
interesting
mix
for
many
.
Gary:
Pop
culture
movies
,
kind
of
kind
of
black
and
white
line
down
the
middle
.
It's
this
versus
that
.
But
I'm
sure
it
was
a
melting
pot
of
everything
.
And
Frankish
crusader
soldiers
married
local
population
and
vice
versa
.
Nic:
And
even
the
armies
of
this
era
.
So
we
know
that
many
Muslim
rulers
hired
Frankish
mercenary
groups
in
large
numbers
.
And
we
know
that
many
of
the
armies
of
the
Kingdom
of
Jerusalem
and
the
present
states
employ
Muslim
soldiers
.
And
of
course
then
there's
auxiliaries
and
that
you've
got
plenty
of
occasions
where
you've
got
multiple
states
taking
part
in
that
battle
and
you've
got
Christians
and
Muslims
on
both
sides
.
So
it's
complicated
.
There
is
it
has
to
be
said
that
underlying
religious
tension
and
there
are
plenty
of
moments
where
holy
war
takes
place
,
but
plenty
of
other
moments
as
well
,
where
it's
a
great
deal
more
complicated
.
Gary:
These
crusader
states
,
they
were
done
,
the
Crusades
kind
of
diminished
over
time
.
Was
there
ever
anything
that
anyone
tried
to
regain
any
of
this
territory
?
Nic:
But
there's
a
lot
of
talk
.
So
when
when
the
final
crusade
of
states
fall
in
,
the
mainland
crusader
states
,
there's
a
lot
of
talk
and
a
lot
of
planning
.
And
you've
got
all
sorts
of
armchair
experts
who
want
guides
on
how
they
would
do
it
,
not
offering
it
themselves
if
they
were
to
.
This
is
how
they
do
it
.
And
you
have
some
very
much
,
very
serious
proposals
to
put
forward
by
the
Templars
and
hospitals
who
give
very
detailed
accounts
.
Well
,
this
is
exactly
how
it
could
be
done
.
But
in
those
years
at
least
,
the
wills
not
in
Western
Christendom
for
another
big
crusade
.
There's
a
lot
of
infighting
in
Western
Christendom
.
years
.
War
is
hotting
up
.
There's
struggles
in
the
German
empire
.
Northern
Italy
is
a
warzone
.
There's
a
lot
going
on
.
That
means
that
that's
just
not
going
to
be
a
big
crusade
in
later
years
.
Proposals
continue
to
be
touted
for
another
big
crusade
,
but
by
the
time
those
sorts
of
proposals
start
to
take
concrete
form
,
you're
in
the
mid
14th
century
,
so
sort
of
the
1350s
studying
forties
,
that
sort
of
era
by
which
time
a
bit
of
background
here
you
have
the
rise
of
the
Ottoman
Empire
.
So
it's
thought
,
for
example
,
in
one
of
the
stories
is
that
there
was
a
group
of
peoples
displaced
by
the
Mongols
who
moved
west
into
Anatolia
,
joining
many
other
Turkish
nomads
being
driven
west
into
Anatolia
.
And
in
time
those
various
groups
formed
by
beyliks
,
one
of
which
was
the
Ottoman
beylik
and
the
Ottoman
beylik
,
expanded
and
expanded
until
ultimately
it
became
the
Ottoman
Empire
.
And
by
the
14th
century
,
the
big
bayonets
,
the
Ottomans
among
them
are
a
much
bigger
source
of
anxiety
in
Western
Christendom
than
anywhere
else
.
And
so
crusading
changes
focus
from
Jerusalem
on
the
eastern
Mediterranean
to
more
defensive
,
crusading
about
trying
to
hold
territory
against
the
oncoming
Ottomans
,
among
others
.
And
so
crusading
shifts
.
But
when
the
Christian
movement
itself
carries
on
,
the
hundreds
of
years
and
crusading
didn't
just
take
place
in
the
Middle
East
,
you've
got
crusades
fought
in
the
Baltic
Crusades
,
fought
in
Iberia
.
Believe
it
or
not
,
there
are
even
crusades
launched
against
the
Eskimos
.
So
crusades
take
place
in
all
sorts
of
different
contexts
,
even
internal
crusading
against
the
papacies
political
opponents
in
Western
Christendom
and
also
anti
heresy
crusades
as
well
.
So
crusading
in
various
forms
carries
on
,
but
there's
not
really
a
serious
effort
to
retake
Jerusalem
in
later
years
.
The
aspiration
is
discussed
endlessly
,
but
no
army
gets
close
.
Gary:
Good
place
to
end
it
.
Then
at
the
end
of
the
Crusader
states
.
Thank
you
for
your
time
.
It's
a
fascinating
talk
.
Where
can
people
find
you
online
?
How
can
they
get
a
hold
of
you
?
Where
can
they
find
your
books
?
Nic:
Yeah
,
sure
.
So
so
the
books
that
might
be
of
interest
or
my
recent
paperback
with
Oxford
University
Press
called
The
Crusader
States
and
the
Neighbors
and
Military
History
and
Uptakes
the
history
of
the
Crusader
states
from
to
.
And
that
can
be
bought
on
Amazon
or
the
Oxford
University
website
.
There's
also
my
other
recent
book
called
The
Mongol
Storm
,
which
is
a
history
of
the
Mongol
invasions
into
the
Middle
East
in
the
13th
century
.
And
that
,
again
,
Amazon
would
be
a
good
place
to
go
for
.
That's
for
the
publisher's
website
,
which
is
basic
books
.
If
you'll
find
out
more
about
my
research
then
of
a
YouTube
channel
and
the
handle
there
is
at
Medieval
Near
East
.
And
you
can
also
find
out
what
my
publications
I
have
an
account
on
academia
or
edu
,
so
you
type
in
my
name
.
Nicholas
Morton
Academia
dot
edu
.
That
will
show
you
where
my
publications
are
.
Or
indeed
you
can
see
my
university
website
,
which
is
Nottingham
Trent
University
in
the
UK
.
Gary:
All
right
.
And
we'll
link
up
all
those
in
the
in
the
show
notes
for
this
so
that
everyone
can
just
find
them
with
a
simple
click
perfect
.
Nic:
Thank
you
.
Gary:
Well
,
I
appreciate
your
time
.
Thank
you
and
thanks
for
being
on
the
show
again
.
Nic:
Always
a
pleasure
.
Thanks
very
much
.
Derek
.
Gary:
That
is
the
rise
and
fall
of
the
Crusader
states
in
a
nutshell
.
Now
,
I
hope
you
enjoyed
it
as
much
as
I
did
.
And
I
want
to
thank
Nick
again
for
coming
on
the
show
and
sharing
his
extensive
knowledge
.
You
can
find
links
to
next
book
in
the
show
notes
as
well
as
his
social
media
on
YouTube
,
Twitter
,
and
the
academia
dot
edu
he
mentioned
.
While
we're
on
the
subject
of
social
networks
,
Gary:
you
can
find
medieval
archives
over
on
Mastodon
and
Blue
Sky
.
They
are
the
new
kids
on
the
social
media
and
it's
not
as
crowded
on
them
.
And
there's
a
lot
of
good
conversations
going
on
over
there
.
Links
to
those
profiles
also
in
the
show
notes
.
Send
your
comments
and
questions
to
podcasts
that
medieval
archives
dot
com
.
And
if
you're
enjoying
the
podcast
.
Easy
way
to
support
the
show
is
to
tell
your
friends
can
share
it
right
from
your
smartphone
.
Send
them
the
link
to
this
great
interview
.
Gary:
If
you're
getting
value
from
the
show
,
consider
supporting
with
a
donation
.
It
helps
keep
the
show
and
the
website
ad
free
and
full
of
great
content
and
interviews
there
.
There's
some
great
donation
options
where
you
can
contribute
any
amount
you
want
.
Head
over
to
medieval
archives
dot
com
slash
support
to
see
if
it's
something
you
want
to
consider
.
Gary:
Thank
you
for
your
time
and
thank
you
for
your
continued
support
and
that'll
wrap
it
up
for
this
episode
.
Thanks
again
for
subscribing
and
listening
to
the
Medieval
Archives
podcast
.
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the
Dark
Ages
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