MAP88: The Crusader States with Nic Morton

Gary:

Medieval

Archives

Podcast

Episode

Gary:

Welcome

back

to

the

Medieval

Archives

Podcast
,

the

podcast

for

medieval

news
,

history

and

entertainment
.

I'm

your

host
,

Gary
,

a.k.a.

the

Archivist
.

In

today's

lesson
,

we're

going

to

talk

about

the

Crusader

states

with

Nicholas

Morton
.

The

Crusader

states

were

founded

during

the

First

Crusade
,

and

the

Crusaders

conquered

the

land

and

claimed

it

as

their

own
.

There

were

four

crusader

states

established

the

County

of

Edessa
,

the

county

of

Tripoli
,

the

principal

of

Antioch
,

and

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem
.

For

almost

years
,

the

crusade

of

states

grew

and

thrived
.

Or

did

they
?

Well
,

that's

why

we

have

Nick

Morton

on

the

show
.

His

new

book
,

The

Crusader

States

and

Their

Neighbors
.

His

book

looks

at

the

history

of

the

Crusader

states
,

their

creation
,

how

they

were

ruled

over
,

and

how

outside

forces

led

to

their

eventual

demise
.

The

book

is

and

technically

new
.

It

was

published

in

,

and

now

it's

getting

a

reprinting

in

a

paperback

edition
.

Nick

was

on

the

show

last

year

talking

about

his

book

The

Mongols

Storm
.

We

had

a

great

discussion

about

the

rise

of

the

Mongol

Empire
,

their

society

and

religion
,

and

of

course
,

their

great

military

might
.

If

you

haven't

heard

that

interview
,

head

over

to

medieval

archives

dot

com

slash

to

listen

to

the

interview

and

pick

up

a

copy

of

the

Mongol

Storm

while

you're

at

it
.

Before

we

get

into

the

interview
,

I

want

to

thank

Marc

H

who

came

out

with

a

fantastic

donation

to

start

off

the

New

year

and

I

lean

in
.

Also

made

a

great

donation
.

It

helps

the

show

keep

running

and

helps

keep

the

show

ad

free
,

which

is

good

for

everybody
.

If

you

have

questions

or

comments

or

want

to

suggest

a

topic

for

the

show
,

send

an

email

over

to

podcast

head

Medieval

archives

dot

com
.

You

can

find

the

links

to

the

Crusader

states

and

all

of

NBC's

social

media

and

the

show

notes

at

Medial

Archives

dot

com

slash

.

If

you're

using

a

new

podcasting

app

that

supports

podcasting

2.0
.

You

can

see

all

those

links

in

the

show

notes

on

your

phone
.

Let's

get

to

our

talk

with

Nick

Morton

and

hear

about

the

Crusader

states
.

Gary:

Today
,

we're

joined

again

by

Nick

Morton
,

who

is

going

to

talk

to

us

about

the

Crusader

states
.

And

he

was

on

previously

when

we

talked

about

the

Mongols

Storm
.

So
,

Nick
,

thanks

again

for

joining

the

show
.

Nic:

Well
,

thank

you

for

having

me
.

Gary:

Okay
.

So

your

new

book
.

It's

a

new

book
.

Your

book

out

is

Creator

States

of

Their

Neighbors
,

which

was

published

in

as

a

hardback
,

and

now

it's

out

as

a

paperback

for

everybody

to

buy
.

The

Crusader

states

were

set

up

after

the

Crusades
.

But

before

we

get

to

that
,

let's

just

do

a

quick

overview

of

how

the

Crusades

began

and

then

why

those

states

were

set

up
.

So

what

led

to

the

Crusades
?

Nic:

Yes
,

sure
.

So

Nic:

the

first

crusade

began

in

and

scholars

have

debated

for

years

why

exactly

the

Pope

launched

a

crusade
.

One

major

reason

which

is

frequently

discussed

is

the

ongoing

invasions

of

the

Seljuk

Turks
,

who

had

conquered

much

of

the

Middle

East

and

were

expanding

into

Anatolia
,

which

at

this

time

was

part

of

the

Byzantine

Empire
.

And

the

appeals

for

help

from

Western

Christendom

sent

by

the

Byzantine

Empire
.

That's

one

possible

reason

other

historians

have

cited

the

Pope's

desire

to

end

infighting

in

Western

Christendom

and

to

divert

warriors

away

from

their

internal

quarrels

into

adventure
.

From

the

Pope's

perspective
,

at

least
,

was

deemed

to

be

a

purposeful

mission
.

Other

factors

have

been

suggested
,

including

a

desire

to

provide

an

outlet

for

violence
,

particularly

because

this

is

it's

Christianity
,

of

course
.

This

is

the

religion

of

turn

the

other

cheek

and

do

good

to

those

that

hate

you
.

And

it

was

deemed

by

the

pope

at

the

time

or

the

church

at

the

time

that

fighting

amongst

Christians

was

irredeemably

sinful
.

But

at

least

for

the

church

in

these

years
,

fighting

along

Christendom

borders

against

non-Christians

would

be

much
,

much

more

acceptable
.

So

there's

that

possible

factor

in

the

pope's

thinking

around

this
.

And

underneath

it

all
,

perhaps

the

fact

that

Christendom

was

growing

in

population

numbers

and

economic

heft
,

which

gave

it

the

ability
,

not

necessarily

the

motivation
,

but

the

ability

to

think

on

that

kind

of

scale
.

And

so

in

,

the

pope

launched

the

crew

safe
.

A

year

or

so

later
,

a

series

of

armies

began

to

leave

not

just

one

big

one
,

but

lots

of

armies
.

And

the

first

few

armies

did

incredibly

poorly

on

the

battlefield
.

At

least

were

destroyed
.

But

then

a

much

larger

army

advanced

through

the

Byzantine

Empire
,

through

Anatolia
,

that's

modern

day

Turkey
,

and

then

into

Syria

and

ultimately

the

Holy

Land
.

And

they

went

on

to

conquer

Jerusalem

itself
.

As

that's

the

history
,

very

briefly
,

of

the

First

Crusade

and

the

Crusader

states

was

set

up
,

built

around

the

cities

and

towns
,

conquered

during

the

course

of

the

First

Crusade
.

Gary:

They

spend

two

or

three

years

conquering

the

holy

lands
.

They

get

to

Jerusalem
,

they

conquer

that
,

and

then

they

decide

to

stay
.

How

did

they

cut

out

the

lands

for

the

Crusader

states
?

There

were

four

of

them
.

How

they

decide

what

crusader

states

they

were

going

to

be

and

how

did

they

pick

their

rulers
.

Nic:

Okay
,

so

it

wasn't

exactly

planned
.

They

didn't

come

together

and

sort

of

work

this

out
.

It

was

more

a

case

that

individual

crusade

commanders
,

whether

by

invitation

or

following

the

conquest

of

a

major

city
,

decided

to

claim

the

area

for

themselves
.

And

then

they

set

about

conquering

as

much

surrounding

land

as

possible
.

And

the

sort

of

the

territorial

coherence

of

the

crusader

states

emerged

from

that
.

From

the

outset
,

at

least
,

it

wasn't

a

very

likely

looking

venture

because

in

the

wake

of

the

first

crusade
.

Well
,

if

you

go

back

a

little

bit
,

in

fact
,

the

main

armies

of

the

first

crusade

that

advanced

across

Anatolia

all

the

way

ultimately

to

Jerusalem

started

off

being

around

100,000

strong
.

By

the

time

they

got

to

Jerusalem
,

it's

probably

around

20,000

strong
.

So

the

attrition

of

the

first

crusade

is

staggering

and

the

survival

rate

is

very
,

very

low
.

Now
,

admittedly
,

not

everyone

died

who

ceased

to

be

part

of

the

crusade

by

the

time

it

reached

Jerusalem
,

some

deserted

or

left
,

but

nonetheless

very
,

very

high

casualty

rates
.

And

so

it's

really

just

this

sort

of

spearhead

of

troops

that

reaches

Jerusalem

and

then

the

wake

of

the

very

brutal

conquest

of

Jerusalem
.

The

vast

majority

of

those

go

home
.

Actually
,

the

chroniclers

tell

us

that

only

a

few

hundred

soldiers

left

in

Jerusalem
.

Maybe

a

slightly

larger

number

in

Antioch

and

also

in

Edessa
,

which

are

the

other

two

big

cities

that

will

become

crusader

states

in

the

long

term
.

But

it's

not

a

very

promising

looking

position
.

If

you

sort

of

view

from

a

pragmatic

level

in

those

early

years
,

but

there

are

factors

that

play

out

in

the

Crusaders

interests
.

The

first

is

that

when

news

arrives

in

Western

Christendom

that

Jerusalem

has

been

conquered
,

then

this

begins

a

process

of

movement

by

which

settlers
,

pilgrims
,

crusaders

in

thousands
,

probably

tens

of

thousands

every

single

year

set

out

for

the

Holy

Land
,

sometimes

to

visit

the

holy

sites

and

return

in

many

cases

to

settle

permanently
.

As

that

sort

of

builds

up

the

population
,

which

is

works

in

favor

of

the

early

rulers

of

the

Crusader

states
.

Another

factor

that

plays

out

in

their

favor

is

that

they

focus

their

military

attention

in

the

early

years

on

the

big

coastal

cities
.

And

these

are

big

ports
.

And

those

big

ports

not

only

just

bring

in

reinforcements

in

Western

Christendom
,

but

they

also

enable

Italian

merchants

and

other

merchants

to

trade

in

those

ports

in

a

treaty

already
.

But

of

course
,

the

key

point

is

that

the

crusader

states

and

territories

can

then

tax

that

trade
,

and

that

becomes

the

economic

sort

of

foundation

stone

for

them

and

then

swinging

things

round
.

There's

actually

a

significant

lack

of

resistance

to

the

Crusaders

in

their

early

years
,

particularly

in

Syria
,

because

in

Syria
,

these

are

the

Western

margins

of

the

Seljuk

Sultanate
,

which

spans

from

the

borders

of

the

Central

Asian

steppe

all

the

way

through

Persia
.

That's

modern

day

Iran
,

Iraq
,

Syria
.

It's

an

enormous

empire

and

it

can

marshal

some

big

armies

in

fact
,

some

seljuk

commanders

did

marshal

some

big

armies

to

fight

the

crusaders

during

the

first

Crusade
.

But

the

Seljuk

Sultanate

is

in

a

state

of

civil

war
,

and

in

fact
,

a

multi-layered

civil

war
.

Is

a

civil

war

being

fought

over

who's

going

to

be

the

next

sultan
?

But

there's

other

civil

wars

taking

place

in

the

provinces

as

well
.

All

of

this

makes

it

quite

difficult

to

unify

resistance

against

the

crusaders

or

Franks

as

they

became

known
.

And

so

whilst

there

are

some

attempts

made

to

dislodge

the

Franks

from

their

sort

of

early

landholdings
,

they

don't

prove

to

be

very

successful
.

And

in

fact
,

you

have

some

advocates

or

one

particular

advocates

for

jihad

against

the

Franks
.

And

he's

very

much

saying

in

his

book
,

look
,

they're

white
,

they're

they're

not

that

strong
.

We

need

to

move

now
.

But

the

political

will

is

just

not

there

in

the

way

that

it

would

need

to

be

in

order

to

make

that

move
.

And

all

of

that

helps

the

Crusader

states
.

Most

resistance

is

shown

to

the

Crusader

states

and

the

early

years
,

at

least

from

Egypt
,

which

is

an

empire

called

the

Fatimid

caliphate
.

But

even

though

they

send

some

big

armies

into

the

southern

borders

of

the

kingdom

of

Jerusalem
,

which

is

the

southernmost

crusader

states
,

those

armies

fare

particularly

well

on

the

battlefield
.

And

it

has

to

be

observed

that

by

the

time

they've

got

through

two

or

three

years

of

crusade
,

followed

by

lots

of

conflicts

that

followed

it
,

the

armies

that

are

left
,

albeit

small
,

they're

incredibly

competent

on

the

battlefield

because

they've

worked

together

for

years

and

they've

built

up

their

knowledge

and

skills

that

veteran

warriors

and

very

hard

to

defeat
.

Gary:

If

there's

only

a

few

hundred

or

thousand

against

an

entire

population
,

they

just

didn't

couldn't

coordinate

to

make

a

resistance

to

get

the

land

back
.

Nic:

It's

interesting
,

the

local

the

underlying

population

is

mixed
.

So

in

this

area
,

you've

probably

got

you've

got

large

Christian

and

Muslim

communities

across

the

Middle

East

and

then

smaller

groups

of

other

religious

groups

such

as

Jewish

communities

or

even

Zoroastrian

communities
.

But

while

some

are

hostile

to

the

Franks
,

not

all

of

the

Bedouin

work

with

or

some

Bedouin

groups

work

with

the

Franks
,

who

are

very

early

stage

as

to

some

sort

of

smaller

Turkish

rulers
.

So

it's

it's

never

quite

as

simple

as

sort

of

just

Christian

versus

Muslim
.

It

can

be

a

great

deal

more

complex

than

that

on

the

ground

in

the

sort

of

the

mix

of

alliances

that

takes

place

for

the

vast

majority

of

the

population
.

As

long

as

the

crusaders

or

Franks

leaves

them

alone
,

they're

normally

prepared

to

pay

their

taxes
,

as

it

were
.

And

so

a

sort

of

status

quo

develops

is

not

that

either
.

Everyone

sees

it

as

being

ideal
,

but

nonetheless
,

it

kind

of

works
.

Gary:

So

how

did

they

govern
?

They

pay

their

tax
,

as

you

say
,

and

then

the

crusaders
,

left

them

alone
.

So

the

demographics

have

to

be

mainly

local

population
.

How

did

they

get

on

with

the

Franks

as

they

were

governing

the

land
?

Nic:

Okay
.

So

it's

different

for

different

groups
.

Eastern

Christians
,

whether

that's

Orthodox

Christians

or

Syriac

Christians

or

Armenian

Christians

or

Jacobite

Christians

as

a

whole

range

of

different

Christian

denominations

in

the

East

where

the

vast

majority

didn't

fight

for

the

Franks
.

A

few

did
.

The

Armenian

groups
,

but

for

the

most

part

they

didn't

fight

for

them
,

although

there

may

have

been

some

recruitment

there
.

But

the

Franks

themselves
,

they

were

happy

to

intermarry

with

eastern

Christian

groups
.

That

happened

quite

a

lot
.

And

in

law
,

Eastern

Christians

were

granted

the

protection

of

the

law

in

the

Crusader

states
,

but

they

didn't

have

the

same

level

of

protection

as

Frankish

Christians
.

So

in

one

way

that

a

historian's

caption

the

treatment

of

Eastern

Christians

by

the

Franks

is

quite

neatly
,

I

think
,

with

the

phrase

wrath

tolerance

in

that

it's

not

equal
.

But

at

the

same

time
,

they

kind

of

get

on

and

the

historical

cross

Mckevitt

did

a

very

good

study

on

that
,

but

that

seems

to

be

about

right
.

But

there

are

lots

of

areas

where

they

they

share

things

a

little

bit
.

They

get

married

state

of

live

in

the

same

areas
.

They

share

festivals
.

In

some

cases

they

worship

in

the

same

places
.

So

they

capital
.

In

some

cases

they

do
.

So

there

is

a

degree

of

crossover

that

in

terms

of

the

Muslim

population

in

the

Crusader

states
,

it's

a

slightly

different

picture
,

A

rather

depends

on

which

particular

group
.

So

if

I

mentioned

the

Bedouin

already
,

often

they

worked

quite

closely

with

the

Crusader

states
.

And

then

you

have

some

communities

such

as

the

Nizari
,

who

are

often

known

as

the

assassins
,

and

they're

intensively

persecuted

in

the

Seljuk

Sultanate
,

who

sees

the

Nazarene

as

a

substantial

threat
.

And

so

the

Nizari

actually

take

refuge

in

the

borderlands

of

the

Crusader

states
,

but

it

always

gets

old

with

the

Crusader

states
.

But

there

is

a

reciprocal

relationship

there
.

Sometimes

they

fight
,

sometimes

they

work

together
,

sometimes

they

conduct

diplomacy
.

But

that
,

too
,

is

a

complicated

relationship

with

regard

to

sort

of

the

broader

Sunni

and

Shia

muslim

population

in

the

area
.

Again
,

in

law
,

it's

a

situation

of

legal

inequality

in

that

Muslims

have

a

protection

of

the

law
,

but

they

don't

have

the

same

level

of

protection

as

Frankish

Christians
.

And

in

many

cases
,

that

does

seem

to

have

been

an

underlying

expectation

that

provided

that

Muslim

communities

paid

their

taxes

and

didn't

rebel

for

the

most

part
,

they

would

be

left

alone

and

has

a

vested

interest

on

both

sides

to

maintain

that

kind

of

relationship
.

The

Franks

want

tax
,

and

they

don't

want

uprisings

of

the

local

population
,

want

to

maintain

their

lands
.

And

you've

actually

got

a

pilgrim

returning

from

Hajj

back

to

his

home

in

southern

Iberia
.

So

the

modern

day

Spain
.

And

he

traveled

through

the

Crusader

states

and

he

noticed

with

surprise

this

kind

of

relationship

that

provides

they

pay

the

taxes
.

They

were

generally

left

alone
,

although

it

can

be

more

complicated

than

that

in

individual

circumstances
.

Gary:

Once

they

created

these

states
.

So

the

most

of

the

resistance

was

from

the

outside
,

not

from

the

inside

of

the

Crusader

states

to

that
,

because

the

Crusader

states

are

a

small

strip

along

the

coast
.

So

there

was

big

cities
.

Damascus

is

outside

of

that
.

Baghdad

isn't

too

far

away
.

Gary:

Were

there

other

Muslim

leaders

and

warlords

who

were

trying

to

come

in

and

take

over

those

lands
?

Nic:

Yes
.

So

in

some

ways
,

the

early

history

of

the

Crusades

in

the

Crusader

states

is

a

tale

of

two

invasions

in

that

you've

obviously

got

the

Crusaders

advancing

from

the

north

across

Anatolia
,

seeking

to

conquer

parts

of

Syria

and

obviously

Jerusalem
.

But

there's

another

invasion

going

on

as

well
,

and

that

predates

the

crusade

by

war

in

Syria
,

at

least

by

a

little

over

years
.

And

that

is

that

in

around

the

year

groups

of

Turkish

nomadic

communities

began

to

move

south

out

of

the

Central

Asian

steppe

region
.

And

in

time
,

the

Seljuk

family

rose

to

lead

these

very

large

population

movements
,

which

ultimately

conquered

the

vast

majority

of

the

Middle

East
.

But

the

Seljuks

who

led

this

conquest
,

they're

incredibly

powerful
.

They

conquered

the

entire

region

and

then

displace

the

local

Arab

or

Kurdish

rulers
.

And

so

their

conquerors

too
.

And

in

the

early

years

at

least
,

that

either

they

still

maintained

that

the

early

ancestral

beliefs

of

the

Central

Asian

steppe

or

at

a

very

early

stage

in

their

conversion

to

Islam
.

So

they're

not

necessarily

seen

as

being

a

familiar

face

to

the

various

sort

of

Muslim

dynasties

and

territories

of

the

Middle

East
.

And

so

there

is

substantial

resistance

to

the

Seljuks
.

Interestingly

enough
,

in

the

wake

of

the

first

Crusade
,

because

the

first

crusade

has

proved

the

siege

economies

can

be

defeated

and

there's

a

wave

of

rebellions

following

that
.

It's

a

situation

in

the

wake

of

the

first

crusade

where

you

have

two

conquerors
,

the

seljuks

with

their

first
,

but

their

position

is

not

secure

and

the

crusaders

are

there

as

well
,

and

they've

newly

arrived

and

their

position

is

not

secure

either
.

And

so

the

relations

between

between

those

two

and

then

the

underlying

populations

underneath

both

those

ruling

factions
,

that

makes

for

a

very

complex

situation
.

And

I've

always

thought

that

one

of

the

reasons

the

Bedouin

supported

the

Crusader

states

in

their

early

years

is

probably

because

they

were

being

pushed

off

their

grazing

lands

by

the

incoming

nomadic

Turkish

nomads

who

wanted

those

lands

to

themselves
.

It's

natural

for

them

to

align

with

someone

who

might

be

able

to

get

them

those

lands

back
.

Gary:

The

Crusaders

started

out

helping

the

Byzantine

Empire
,

so

while

they

were

governing

the

Crusader

states
,

Did

the

Byzantine

Empire

come

back

and

say
,

Gary:

Hey
,

this

is

our

land

that

you

conquered

for

us
,

and

try

to

take

that

land

back
?

Nic:

Yes
,

the

Byzantine

Empire

is

the

direct

line

continuation

of

the

Eastern

Roman

Empire
.

There's

no

break
.

It's

just

the

name

changes
,

but

there's

no

actual

rift

between

as

I

know

it
.

It

ceases

to

be

the

Assyrian

Empire

becomes

the

Byzantine

Empire
.

And

so

as

a

result
,

as

far

as

the

Byzantines

are

concerned
,

they

have

a

right

to

rule
.

Much

of

the

area

and

formally

for

centuries
,

say

rural

parts

of

Syria

and

even

down

to

Egypt

and

North

Africa
.

So

the

Byzantines

do

see

this

area

as

being

historically

theirs
,

at

least

Alexius

the

first

Komnenos
.

He

was

part

of

the

call

for

the

first

crusade
,

trying

to

request

help
.

So

the

Crusaders

arrive

and

historians

have

generally

thought

that

Alexius

probably

wouldn't

have

been

particularly

pleased

by

the

sight

of

this

enormous

army

outside

the

walls
.

Yes
,

he

wanted

supports
,

but

historians

have

normally

felt

that

he

probably

wanted

two

or

professional

soldiers

who

could

seamlessly

be

integrated

into

his

army
,

rather

than

hundreds

of

thousands

of

people

with

large

numbers

of

non-combatants

who

have

their

own

ideas

about

what

they're

doing

and

where

they're

going
.

So

things

do

get

a

little

bit

tense

as

even

some

skirmishes

fought

outside

the

Byzantine

capital

during

the

First

Crusade

as

tensions

emerge
.

But

the

bottom

line

is

this

the

Crusaders

agree

to

work

with

the

Byzantines

if

they

are

prepared

to

take

an

oath

to

the

Byzantine

Emperor
.

And

the

emphasis

very

clear

on

this
,

and

in

return

the

Emperor

offers
,

offers
,

logistical

support

and

supplies

and

things

like

that
.

A

key

clause

in

that

oath

that

they're

expected

to

take

is

that

they're

supposed

to

return

any

formerly

Byzantine

territory
.

And

I

suppose

in

theory

the

Byzantines

could

expand

that

to

mean

pretty

much

anywhere
.

But

the

thing

they've

really

got

their

eye

on

is

the

territories

they've

lost

very

recently

in

Anatolia

when

they

Turkey
,

but

in

particular

the

city

of

Antioch
,

which

is

in

very

much

the

southern

borders

of

Turkey

today
.

And

so

when

the

crusaders

advance

across

Anatolia
,

they

begin

by

handing

back

the

city

of

Nicaea
,

which

they

conquered
,

that

the

Byzantines

take

Nicaea

whilst

its

being

besieged

by

the

Crusaders
,

and

then

later

the

Crusaders

move

south

towards

Jerusalem
.

The

Byzantines

follow

behind

it
,

and

with

the

Crusaders

defeating

the

various

armies

who

are

sent

against

them
,

the

Byzantines

decides

to

collect

the

lands

basically

that

the

Crusaders

are

passing

through

and

to

consolidate
,

to

conquer

any

remaining

unconquered

territories
.

And

they

regain

a

lot

of

territory

in

Anatolia

because

that

following

in

the

wake

of

the

crusading

army
.

And

so

that

works

very

well

for

the

Byzantines
.

But

things

begin

to

come

unstuck

in

that

relationship

ship

during

the

siege

of

Antioch
,

which

is

very

much

the

make

or

break

moment

of

the

first

crusade
,

the

siege

lasts

a

seven

or

eight

months
.

It's

in

the

middle

of

the

Syrian

winter
,

which

is

cold

and

wet
.

Lots

of

crusaders

die

from

exposure

or

starvation

or

other

natural

causes

alongside

military

action
.

And

although

the

Byzantines

do

send

some

forces

to

relieve

them
,

there

comes

a

point
,

it

seems
,

where

the

Byzantines

probably

felt

that

the

Crusaders

not

going

to

survive
.

And

this

is

a

very

contentious

topic
.

Exactly

what

was

going

on

in

that

conversation

isn't

clear
,

but

it

seems

as

though

the

Crusaders

on

the

verge

of

falling

apart

and

the

Crusaders

therefore

accused

the

Byzantines

of

not

supplying

them

with

the

assistance

they

require

at

the

critical

moment

where

they're

in

most

need

of

the

Byzantines
.

So

that

part

rejects

this

and

the

debate

on

that

goes

round

and

round
.

But

the

point

is

when

the

crusaders

do

ultimately

take

Antioch
,

they

refuse

to

give

it

back

because

they

sent

their

oath

to

the

Byzantine

Emperor

has

already

been

rendered

void
.

And

that

creates

a

line

of

tension
,

particularly

between

the

Franks

who

taken

rule

Antioch

becoming

the

principality

of

Antioch
.

That

creates

a

lot

of

tension

that

just

runs

and

runs

and

runs

with

the

Byzantine

emperors

who

feel

they

have

a

right

to

it
,

and

the

princes

of

Antioch

who

feel

they

have

a

right

to

it

too
,

and

other

rulers

in

place

as

so

the

other

Crusader

states
,

the

Byzantines
,

are

much
,

much

more

willing

to

be

broadly

supportive
,

provided

that

certain

conditions

are

met

in

later

years
.

So

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem

and

the

county

of

Tripoli
,

which

is

essentially

the

northern

part

of

modern

day

Lebanon

and

the

southwestern

part

of

modern

day

Syria
,

relations

that

are

also

fairly

positive

with

Byzantines

throughout

much

of

their

history
.

So

it's

a

mixed

picture
.

But

the

sort

of

origins

of

that

relationship
,

we
.

Gary:

You

can't

visit

those

crusader

states

that

are

not

nations

today
.

So

what

was

the

beginning

of

the

downfall

for

them
?

How

long

were

they

states
?

And

then

where

did

the

resistance

come

from

if

it

didn't

come

from

within
?

That

started

the

downfall

of

the

Crusader

states
.

Nic:

Okay
.

Yeah
,

great

question
.

So

for

the

first

years
,

the

Crusader

states

are

on

the

front

foot
.

They

win

most

of

the

battles
.

They're

taking

territory
.

There's

various

reasons

for

that
.

The

fact

that

the

generation

of

the

first

crusade

is

still

around

and

can

pass

on

a

great

deal

of

knowledge

and

experience

seems

to

have

been

a

factor
.

Another

factor

is

that

there's

not

much

consolidation
,

particularly

in

Syria

among

the

various

Turkish

rulers

that

they

face

on

their

eastern

frontier
.

The

Franks

managed

to

defeat

the

Fatimid

empire

in

Egypt
,

many

battlefield

encounters

and

from

about

onwards
,

there's

not

much

fighting

in

the

South
,

which

consolidates

as

southern

borders

and

the

momentum

of

conquest

carries

them

forwards

where

the

franks

begin

to

come

in
.

The

difficulty

is

once

they

start

to

reach

the

borders

of

the

big

Syrian

cities

of

Aleppo

in

the

north

and

Damascus

in

the

south
.

Now

these

are

really

big

cities

by

medieval

standards
,

maybe

as

many

as

60,000

population
,

which

is

huge

by

the

standards

of

the

day
.

And

just

the

context
.

Armies

deployed

by

the

Crusader

states

in

this

era

never

got

bigger

than

about

10,000
.

So

they're

looking

at

tackling

cities

where

the

very

population
,

before

you

bring

in

any

really

reforms

or

anyone

else

is

still

six

times

larger

than

the

army

attacking

it
.

They

struggled

to

conquer

those

cities

with

their

failure

to

do

so
.

The

tide

began

to

turn

a

bit
.

That

was

sort

of

the

moment

of

which

I

believe

the

military

jargon

is

to

culminate
.

Their

invasions

culminated
.

After

that

you

have

the

beginnings

of

consolidation

in

Syria

with

the

rise

of

a

ruler

called

Ascending
.

He's

a

Turkish

ruler

and

he

manages

to

build

up

a

powerbase

across

Syria

and

the

Jazeera
,

which

is

the

area

of

land

between

the

Euphrates

and

Tigris

River

all

the

way

across

to

Mosul
.

And

with

that

big

empire

that

he's

carved

out

of

Muslim

territory

that

gives

him

enormous

military

force
,

which

tipped

the

balance

of

power

very

much

in

his

favor
.

Now
,

he's

not

that

interested

in

fighting

the

Franks
.

He

does

it

occasionally
,

but

not

very

much
.

But

nonetheless
,

it

means

there's

going

to

be

no

more

expansion

for

the

Franks

on

that

frontier
.

Nic:

And

under

his

son

called

Nur

al

Din
,

Nur

al-DIn

are

other

begins

to

make

more

inroads

on

the

acquisitive

states
,

although

it

has

to

be

something

which

because

it's

getting

more

and

more

powerful

pretty

much

until

they

fall
.

What

really

shifts

the

needle
,

as

it

were
,

is

that

Nur

al-Din
,

who

is

the

ruler

of

Syria
.

I

would

talk

now

in

about

the

1150s
,

1160s
.

He

has

two

main

clusters

of

opponents
.

Yes
,

he

recognizes

the

threat

from

the

Franks

is

that

he

also

has

various

Turkish

rivals
,

particularly

in

Anatolia
.

But

he's

also

very

keen

to

conquer

Egypt

and

Egypt's

really
,

really

important

because

Egypt

is

the

economic

powerhouse

of

the

entire

region
.

The

crops

of

the

Nile

Delta
,

the

industrial

product

of

the

big

cities

of

Egypt
,

and

Egypt's

central

position

on

the

spice

routes

across

the

Indian

Ocean
.

The

silk

roads

from

Central

Asia
,

the

Trans

Sahara

and

gold

routes
.

There's

a

lot

of

money
,

whether

through

trade
,

commerce
,

industrial

agriculture

in

Egypt
.

So

if

you've

got

control

of

Egypt
,

then

that's

going

to

substantially

enhance

your

economic

position

and

the

world

and

wants

to

conquer

Egypt
.

Now
,

it's

not

necessarily

for

Egypt's

wealth
,

it

seems

it

was

equally

as

interested

as

a

Sunni

Muslim

ruler

in

conquering

a

Shia

empire
,

which

is

the

price

of

an

empire

was
.

And

so

he

sends

a

series

of

armies

into

Egypt
.

So

too

does

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem
.

And

during

the

1160s
,

a

lot

of

fighting

over

who's

going

to

rule

Egypt
.

Well
,

the

fact

that

it's

retained

control
,

will

it

be

the

crusader

states
?

Will

it

be

neutral
?

Did

the

crusader

states

and

the

Fatimids

lose

that

contest

because

no

audience

armies

do

take

control

of

Cairo

in

and

consolidate

their

position

in

the

following

months

and

yet
,

in

fact
,

neutral

didn't

doesn't

get

to

rule

Egypt

either
,

because

his

lieutenant
,

who

commanded

the

army

of

invasion

into

Egypt
,

is

a

Kurdish

commander

called

Shaka

and

should

die

fairly

soon

after

conquering

Egypt

and

power

passes

onto

his

nephew
.

Nic:

His

nephew's

name

is

Salah

ad-Din

ibn

Ayyub
.

Are

you

Saladin
?

As

Saladin

takes

control

of

Egypt
,

they

never

really

let

me
.

Whilst

he

always

acknowledges

neuralgia

in

Din's

Overlordship
,

nonetheless
,

he

pretty

much

rules

Egypt

as

an

independent

power
.

And

in

1170s

and

eighties

he

manages

to

conquer

much

of

Syria

as

well
.

After

his

Masters

death
,

Saladin

invades

Syria

and

conquers

many

towns

and

cities

from

Neurath
.

It

is

as

and

this

is

the

key

point
.

By

doing

that
,

he

builds

this

enormous

consolidation

of

power
.

Syria
,

which

can

call

upon

large

reserves

of

troops

from

the

Turkic

population
,

Egypt

with

its

enormous

economic

resources
.

And

so

you're

putting

troops

and

money

together

by

having

both

Syria

and

Egypt

that

gives

him

the

force

to

raise

enormous

armies
.

And

it's

in

the

1180s

that

he

can

really

begin

to

take

the

offensive

in

a

very

serious

way

against

the

Crusader

states

and

with

a

serious

hope

of

reconquering

Jerusalem
,

that

enormous

consolidation

of

power

that

he's

able

to

put

together

that

ultimately

destroys

the

kingdom

of

Jerusalem
.

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem

continues

to

grow

even

into

the

1180s
,

but

it's

just

outmatched

by

Saladin
.

His

empire

is

growing

faster
.

And

so

in

,

at

the

Battle

of

,

Saladin

stores

an

overwhelming

victory

against

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem
.

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem

is

the

biggest

of

the

Crusader

states
.

The

northern

ones

can't

survive

alone
.

And

so

this

then

sees

the

substantial

demolition

of

much

of

the

Crusader

states
.

And

that

brings

to

an

end

a

chapter

in

the

history

of

the

Crusader

states
.

Although

just

to

make

things

more

complicated
,

there's

an

another

big

crusade

called

the

Third

Crusade
,

which

rebelled

to

some

extent

the

states

which

then

carry

on

for

another

century

until

their

eventual

collapse

in

.

Gary:

Saladin

takes

over
.

Egypt

is

right

below

kind

of

borders
,

the

kingdom

of

Jerusalem

on

the

south

side
.

And

if

he

takes

Syria

as

well
,

he

surrounds

the

crusader

states
.

For

the

most

part
,

he's

got

them

all

surrounded
.

They

can't

go

anywhere

except

the

ocean

or

fight
.

Nic:

That's

correct
.

Gary:

Yeah
.

The

Third

Crusade

and

Richard
,

the

first

comes

in
.

And

so

how

does

he

regrow

or

how

does

he

help

solidify

the

crusader

state

so

they

don't

fall

for

another

years

or

so
.

Nic:

Within

about

a

year
,

months

of

the

Battle

of

Hattin
,

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem

has

been

reduced

from

encompassing

tens

of

cities
,

dozens

of

towns
,

huge

areas

of

agricultural

lands
,

and

many
,

many

castles

and

strongholds
.

It's

been

reduced

it

basically

to

one

city
.

That's

the

city

of

Tyre
,

a

modern

day

Syria
.

In

modern

day

southern

Lebanon
,

the

northern

crusader

states

of

Tripoli
,

Tripoli

is

reduced

to

Tripoli

itself

in

a

few

strongholds
,

Antiochus

reduced

to

Antioch

itself
.

In

a

few

strongholds
,

the

county

of

Edessa

fell

some

time

before

that
.

Saladin's

advance

is

also

has

him

very
,

very

effective

at

destroying

the

greater

part

of

the

Crusader

states
.

And

it's

clear

the

Crusader

states

are

on

the

point

of

falling
.

But

within

months

of

Saladin's

victory

and

by

the

time

that

Saladin

has

reconquered

Jerusalem
,

the

armies

of

the

Third

Crusade

are

already

being

raised
.

They're

already

gathering
,

and

they're

led

by

commanders

such

as

Emperor
,

the

first

of

Germany
,

but

at

the

second

to

France
,

and

most

famously
,

perhaps
,

Richard
,

the

first

of

England
.

And

so

these

armies

arrive

in

the

Middle

East

and

a

massive

war

begins

to

emerge

along

the

coastline

as

the

crusaders

try

to

regain

territory

and

Saladin

and

his

army

tries

to

prevent

them
.

It's

fascinating

how

a

database

in

which

they

record

every

battle
,

skirmish

and

raid

I

can

find

across

the

entire

Middle

East

between

about

hundred
.

But

in

the

years

of

the

Third

Crusade
,

which

are

basically

between

well
,

the

fighting

was

really

between

about

and

.

There's

scarcely

any

conflict

anywhere

else

except

in

a

very
,

very

narrow

bit

of

land
.

It's

remarkable

to

what

extent

the

struggle

between

Saladin

and

the

armies

of

the

Third

Crusade

drew

fighters

from

so

many

different

areas
.

There's

just

not

much

more

fighting

anywhere

else
.

And

so

there

are

some

enormous

battles

fought

in

battle
.

Richard

tends

to

do

better

around

the

negotiating

table
.

Saladin

tends

to

do

better
.

And

the

upshot

of

this

is

that

a

treaty

is

forged

in

.

But

in

that

treaty
,

the

Crusaders

do

regain

some

of

their

former

port

cities
,

but

they

don't

get

Jerusalem
.

Saladin

gets

to

keep

Jerusalem
,

and

that

is

the

compromise

that

is

settled

for

the

time

at

least
.

But

of

equal

importance

is

that

within

a

year

or

so

of

the

third

Crusades

ending

the

strain
,

the

Third

Crusade

would

have

put

on

all

all

the

commanders

involved

would

have

been

incredible
,

just

the

sheer

effort

that

would

have

required

for

everyone

involved
.

And

I've

always

rather

suspected

that

it's

just

sheer

exhaustion

that

played

a

part

in

Saladin's

death

fairly

soon

afterwards
,

in

the

wake

of

Saladin's

death
,

his

empire

falls

apart
,

or

at

least

it

falls

apart

as

a

single

unified

entity
,

as

his

brother

and

sons

take

various

different

parts

of

it

and

then

fight

amongst

themselves

and

they

fight

amongst

themselves

for

the

next

almost

years

because

they're

fighting

amongst

themselves
.

They

actually

show

very

little

interest
.

It's

very

periodic

their

interest

in

either

defending

against

or

attacking

what's

left

of

the

Crusader

states
,

which

creates

a

window

of

opportunity

for

the

crusaders

to

rebuild

their

position

along

the

coast
,

even

to

the

point

where

the

Crusaders

regained

Jerusalem

by

treaty

in

,

only

hold

it

for

about

years
.

What

ultimately

brings

about

the

fall

of

the

Crusader

states

is
,

interestingly

enough
,

nothing

to

do

with

the

Crusaders

states

themselves
.

A

new

empire

forms

in

Egypt
,

which

rises

up
.

It

takes

over

Egypt

from

Saladin's

dynasty

by

the

by

about

,

which

is

when

are

you

the

IU

but

dynasty

stallions

dynasty

in

Egypt

Falls
.

Their

armies

depend

very

heavily

on

enslaved

people

who

they

have

purchased

and

then

raised

and

trained

to

be

soldiers
.

Nic:

And

they're

called

Mamluks
.

And

these

soldiers

are

very

effective

on

the

battlefield
,

but

they

have

too

many

of

them
,

and

they

can

simply

guess

what's

coming

next
.

The

Mamluks

realized
,

well
,

actually
,

they

don't

have

to

obey

anyone's

instructions
.

And

so

they

rebelled
.

Take

over

Egypt

and

form

the

Mamluk

empire
.

So

the

mamluks

in

Egypt

and

then

to

the

north

east
,

you

have

the

rapidly

expanding

empire

of

the

Mongols

and

the

Mongols

begin

their

expansion

into

the

Middle

East

in

the

1220s
.

By

,

the

Mongols

control

the

pretty

much

the

entire

Middle

East

up

to

much

of

Syria

and

all

that's

left

of

territory

is

that

the

Mongols

are

either

control

or

have

overlordship

the

Crusader

states

which

are

fairly

small
,

not

anything

like

strong

enough

to

fight

off

the

Mongols

and

the

Mamluks

in

Egypt
.

And

a

deal

emerges

in

the

Mamluks

and

the

Mongols

last

for

years

and

there's

victory

and

defeat

on

sides
,

massive

armies
.

And

the

major

contest

is

between

the

Mongols

and

the

Mamluks
,

who's

therefore

going

to

be

the

ruler

of

the

Middle

East
,

sort

of

control

the

entire

area
.

And

it

ends

in

a

stalemate
.

But

essentially

within

that

context
,

when

the

Mamluks

are

fighting

the

Mongols
,

they

send

their

armies

against

what's

left

of

the

Crusader

state

to

the

present
.

So

it's

a

sort

of

worn

down

and

eventually

destroyed

as

a

sideshow

to

a

much

bigger

contest

taking

place

between

the

Mamluks

and

the

Mongols
.

Gary:

Stop

getting

bored
.

They

just

go

pick

on

the

Crusader

states
.

Nic:

There

may

be

an

element

to

that

because

there's

big

lulls

in

the

fighting

between

the

Mamluks

and

the

Mongols

and

the

Mamluks

use

those

lulls

to

fight

the

Crusader

states
,

and

as

you

say
,

that

would

give

them

some

very

good

training

in

siege

craft

and

battlefield

tactics

that

they

could

then

apply

to

fighting

the

Mongols

later
.

Gary:

All

the

writing

was

kind

of

on

the

wall

when

the

Mongols

come

in

from

the

north

and

the

east
,

and

then

you

have

Mamluks

in

the

south
.

Once

you're

surrounded

by

those

two

armies

and

you

only

have

a

couple

of

thousand

people
,

you're

in

trouble
.

Well
,

so

what

was

the

downfall
?

They

lasted

through

some

of

those

battles
.

The

Mongols

were

there

and

then

they

pull

out

who

eventually

took

over

those

crusader

states

Nic:

I

mentioned
.

The

big

contest

is

the

Mamluks

in

Egypt

and

later

in

Syria

fighting

the

Mongols
.

The

main

frontier

in

that

war

is

the

Euphrates

River
,

the

Mamluks

and

their

troops

against

the

states

during

sort

of

periods

of

peace

with

the

Mongols

anyway
.

But

basically

they

just

take

the

position

of
,

say
,

it's

a

pot

every

year
,

every

few

years
,

they

might

take

a

few

towns
,

a

few

strongholds
.

The

next

year

they

do

the

same

thing

because

there's

no

real

counter-offensive
.

The

Franks

by

this

stage

lack

the

numbers

to

meet

the

mamluks

on

equal

terms

on

the

battlefield
.

They

made

the

front

a

few

raids
,

but

they're

never

going

to

get

these

territories

back
.

And

by

the

late

13th

century
,

which

is

this

sort

of

era

enthusiasm

for

crusading

all

the

way

across

to

the

eastern

Mediterranean's

at

a

fairly

low

ebb

in

western

Christendom
,

so

no

big

armies

set

out

during

that

era

to

support

the

Crusader

states
.

A

few

smaller

contingents
,

perhaps
.

So

the

Mamluks

really

can

take

the

kind

of

states

apart

as

as

a

when

they

choose
.

In

fact
,

the

crusaders

biggest

card

to

play

at

the

negotiating

table

is

their

central

role

in

trade
,

their

crucial

trading

importance
,

and

the

moments

of

an

interest

in

keeping

the

trading

emporium

open
,

which

is

actually

their

strongest

argument

for

remaining

for

keeping

going

in

many

ways
.

But

yeah
,

they're

taken

apart
.

And

in

,

the

Mamluks

besiege

the

City

of

Acre
,

which

is

the

capital

city

of

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem
,

and

with

the

fall

of

Angkor
,

that's

pretty

much

it
.

There's

a

couple

of

towns

left
,

but

they're

evacuated

in

the

wake

of

the

fall

of

acre

and

that's

the

end

of

the

mainland

Crusader

states
.

Although

the

island

of

Cyprus

remains

a

Catholic

kingdom

all

the

way

up

until

it

remains

in

western

Christian

hands

until

.

Gary:

I

know

for

me
,

I

always

look

at

kind

of

the

military

aspect

of

everything
,

but

what

was

the

social

and

economic

aspect

of

the

Crusader

states

that

you

said

that

they

had

a

lot

of

trade

that

was

involved
.

Did

they

build

up

these

cities

in

like

a

Frankish

way
?

Did

they

kind

of

assimilate

and

build

them

up

into

the

Muslim

near

East

kind

of

society
?

How

would

the

economics

and

society

look

like

before

everything

collapsed
?

Nic:

Yeah
,

great

question
.

And

there's

several

points

to

make

here
.

The

first

is

that

there's

a

huge

amount

of

exchange

that

takes

place

during

this

era
.

When

you

look

at

maps

and

in

some

people's

books

or

some

of

the

way

which

people

describe

this

era
,

you

would

be

forgiven

for

thinking

that

there's

a

sort

of

one

block

of

territory

called

Christian

territory
,

one

block

of

typical

Muslim

territory

and

a

line

between

the

two
,

and

that's

it
.

Recent

research

is

very

much

breaking

down

the

idea
.

I

just

to

give

you

one

idea

of

how

that

might

operate
,

there's

not

much

money

around
.

So

even

though

the

Christian

sector

to

quite

wealthy
,

so

is

Damascus

and

Aleppo
.

By

modern

standards
,

the

entire

region

is

not

particularly

wealthy
.

And

so

let's

say

that

you

are

the

emir

of

Damascus

or

the

count

of

Tripoli

or

the

queen

of

Jerusalem

or

any

any

ruler

from

across

the

area
,

if

you

will
,

to

build

a

church
,

a

mosque
,

a

palace
,

a

castle
,

the

town

walls
.

You

can

probably

do

that

just

about
.

And

so

for

two

or

three

years
,

you

will

hire

masons

and

carpenters

and

laborers

and

all

the

people

you

need

to

build

that

building
.

And

at

the

end

of

that

period
,

that's

it
.

You're

out

of

money
.

That's

the

end
.

And

so

all

those

artisans

have

to

go

somewhere

else
.

And

so

where

do

they

go
?

They

go

where

the

money

is
.

And

if

that

means

crossing

a

cultural

border

into

Christian

territory

or

into

Muslim

territory

or

Byzantine

territory

or

Armenian

territory
,

they'll

do

it
.

They

follow

the

money
.

As

a

result
,

all

these

artisans
,

not

just

the

building

stuff
,

but

also

scientists
,

intellectuals
,

theologians
,

in

some

cases

doctors
,

falconers
,

all

the

all

these

sorts

of

professionals
.

They

travel

all

the

time

and

they

travel

very

easily

from

Christian

and

Muslim

territory
.

And

of

course
,

they

don't

just

leave

their

ideas

and

technologies

at

the

border
,

they

bring

them

with

them
.

And

so

within

that

process
,

ideas
,

stories
,

technologies
,

they

get

shared

all

the

time
.

And

it's

interesting

to

see

the

architecture

of

this

era

where

you

see

distinctively

Western

European

elements

in

some

eastern

Christian

or

Muslim

buildings

and

you

see

some

distinctively

Muslim

architectural

elements

in

Christian

buildings
.

And

the

reason

they're

doing

that

is

because

they're

sharing

a

workforce
.

You

mentioned

about

the

cities

of

the

Crusader

states
,

and

here

it's

an

incredible

mixture

because

of

course

they're

inheriting

I

said

heritage
.

When

they

conquer

these

places
,

the

buildings

are

already

there
.

Some

might

get

knocked

down

or

destroyed
.

They

may

replace

them

or

augment
.

But

the

basic

building

stocks

are

already

there
.

And

that

will

be

a

mixture

of

eastern

Christian

and

Muslim

buildings
.

But

of

course
,

the

Franks

that

impose

their

own

imprint

on

that
.

And

so

where

you

might

have

a

traditional

Middle

Eastern

city

to

begin

with
,

for

example
,

one

feature

of

Frankish

architecture

is

the

like

big

town

squares
.

That's

a

distinctive

of

Italian

cities

in

this

era
,

and

they

create

that

in

the

Crusader

states

and

Italian

townhouses

have

beautiful

facades

that

emphasize

the

prestige

majesty

of

the

family

that

live

there
.

And

so

these

Frankish

ideas

and

norms

are

augmented

onto

the

existing

cities

that

the

Crusaders

conquered

in

the

first

place
.

And

so

you've

got

this

mixture

of

a

mixture

of

architecture
,

a

mixture

of

building

styles
.

And

I've

often

thought

that

if

I

could

go

back

in

time
,

it

would

just

be

the

opportunity

to

walk

through

some

of

these

cities
,

whether

that's

ACRE

in

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem

or

Damascus

in

Seljuk
,

Syria
,

and

just

to

hear

the

voices

and

the

stories

and

the

things

being

exchanged

because

it

must

be

an

incredible

and

fascinating

place

with

all

these

different

cultures

negotiating
,

making

friends
,

eating

together
,

hating

each

other
,

good

or

bad
,

or

every

other

emotion

in

between

the

spectrum

and

all

taking

place

in

a

very

small

area
.

I

know

what

that

must

have

been

like

is

it's

one

of

the

things

that

fascinates

me

about

this
.

All

these

different

cultures

encountering

each

other
,

whether

for

good

or

ill
,

but

having

that

encounter
,

what

they

make

of

each

other
,

what

they

love

and

what

they

refuse

to

learn
,

it

makes

it

a

very

interesting

mix

for

many
.

Gary:

Pop

culture

movies
,

kind

of

kind

of

black

and

white

line

down

the

middle
.

It's

this

versus

that
.

But

I'm

sure

it

was

a

melting

pot

of

everything
.

And

Frankish

crusader

soldiers

married

local

population

and

vice

versa
.

Nic:

And

even

the

armies

of

this

era
.

So

we

know

that

many

Muslim

rulers

hired

Frankish

mercenary

groups

in

large

numbers
.

And

we

know

that

many

of

the

armies

of

the

Kingdom

of

Jerusalem

and

the

present

states

employ

Muslim

soldiers
.

And

of

course

then

there's

auxiliaries

and

that

you've

got

plenty

of

occasions

where

you've

got

multiple

states

taking

part

in

that

battle

and

you've

got

Christians

and

Muslims

on

both

sides
.

So

it's

complicated
.

There

is

it

has

to

be

said

that

underlying

religious

tension

and

there

are

plenty

of

moments

where

holy

war

takes

place
,

but

plenty

of

other

moments

as

well
,

where

it's

a

great

deal

more

complicated
.

Gary:

These

crusader

states
,

they

were

done
,

the

Crusades

kind

of

diminished

over

time
.

Was

there

ever

anything

that

anyone

tried

to

regain

any

of

this

territory
?

Nic:

But

there's

a

lot

of

talk
.

So

when

when

the

final

crusade

of

states

fall

in

,

the

mainland

crusader

states
,

there's

a

lot

of

talk

and

a

lot

of

planning
.

And

you've

got

all

sorts

of

armchair

experts

who

want

guides

on

how

they

would

do

it
,

not

offering

it

themselves

if

they

were

to
.

This

is

how

they

do

it
.

And

you

have

some

very

much
,

very

serious

proposals

to

put

forward

by

the

Templars

and

hospitals

who

give

very

detailed

accounts
.

Well
,

this

is

exactly

how

it

could

be

done
.

But

in

those

years

at

least
,

the

wills

not

in

Western

Christendom

for

another

big

crusade
.

There's

a

lot

of

infighting

in

Western

Christendom
.

years
.

War

is

hotting

up
.

There's

struggles

in

the

German

empire
.

Northern

Italy

is

a

warzone
.

There's

a

lot

going

on
.

That

means

that

that's

just

not

going

to

be

a

big

crusade

in

later

years
.

Proposals

continue

to

be

touted

for

another

big

crusade
,

but

by

the

time

those

sorts

of

proposals

start

to

take

concrete

form
,

you're

in

the

mid

14th

century
,

so

sort

of

the

1350s

studying

forties
,

that

sort

of

era

by

which

time

a

bit

of

background

here

you

have

the

rise

of

the

Ottoman

Empire
.

So

it's

thought
,

for

example
,

in

one

of

the

stories

is

that

there

was

a

group

of

peoples

displaced

by

the

Mongols

who

moved

west

into

Anatolia
,

joining

many

other

Turkish

nomads

being

driven

west

into

Anatolia
.

And

in

time

those

various

groups

formed

by

beyliks
,

one

of

which

was

the

Ottoman

beylik

and

the

Ottoman

beylik
,

expanded

and

expanded

until

ultimately

it

became

the

Ottoman

Empire
.

And

by

the

14th

century
,

the

big

bayonets
,

the

Ottomans

among

them

are

a

much

bigger

source

of

anxiety

in

Western

Christendom

than

anywhere

else
.

And

so

crusading

changes

focus

from

Jerusalem

on

the

eastern

Mediterranean

to

more

defensive
,

crusading

about

trying

to

hold

territory

against

the

oncoming

Ottomans
,

among

others
.

And

so

crusading

shifts
.

But

when

the

Christian

movement

itself

carries

on
,

the

hundreds

of

years

and

crusading

didn't

just

take

place

in

the

Middle

East
,

you've

got

crusades

fought

in

the

Baltic

Crusades
,

fought

in

Iberia
.

Believe

it

or

not
,

there

are

even

crusades

launched

against

the

Eskimos
.

So

crusades

take

place

in

all

sorts

of

different

contexts
,

even

internal

crusading

against

the

papacies

political

opponents

in

Western

Christendom

and

also

anti

heresy

crusades

as

well
.

So

crusading

in

various

forms

carries

on
,

but

there's

not

really

a

serious

effort

to

retake

Jerusalem

in

later

years
.

The

aspiration

is

discussed

endlessly
,

but

no

army

gets

close
.

Gary:

Good

place

to

end

it
.

Then

at

the

end

of

the

Crusader

states
.

Thank

you

for

your

time
.

It's

a

fascinating

talk
.

Where

can

people

find

you

online
?

How

can

they

get

a

hold

of

you
?

Where

can

they

find

your

books
?

Nic:

Yeah
,

sure
.

So

so

the

books

that

might

be

of

interest

or

my

recent

paperback

with

Oxford

University

Press

called

The

Crusader

States

and

the

Neighbors

and

Military

History

and

Uptakes

the

history

of

the

Crusader

states

from

to

.

And

that

can

be

bought

on

Amazon

or

the

Oxford

University

website
.

There's

also

my

other

recent

book

called

The

Mongol

Storm
,

which

is

a

history

of

the

Mongol

invasions

into

the

Middle

East

in

the

13th

century
.

And

that
,

again
,

Amazon

would

be

a

good

place

to

go

for
.

That's

for

the

publisher's

website
,

which

is

basic

books
.

If

you'll

find

out

more

about

my

research

then

of

a

YouTube

channel

and

the

handle

there

is

at

Medieval

Near

East
.

And

you

can

also

find

out

what

my

publications

I

have

an

account

on

academia

or

edu
,

so

you

type

in

my

name
.

Nicholas

Morton

Academia

dot

edu
.

That

will

show

you

where

my

publications

are
.

Or

indeed

you

can

see

my

university

website
,

which

is

Nottingham

Trent

University

in

the

UK
.

Gary:

All

right
.

And

we'll

link

up

all

those

in

the

in

the

show

notes

for

this

so

that

everyone

can

just

find

them

with

a

simple

click

perfect
.

Nic:

Thank

you
.

Gary:

Well
,

I

appreciate

your

time
.

Thank

you

and

thanks

for

being

on

the

show

again
.

Nic:

Always

a

pleasure
.

Thanks

very

much
.

Derek
.

Gary:

That

is

the

rise

and

fall

of

the

Crusader

states

in

a

nutshell
.

Now
,

I

hope

you

enjoyed

it

as

much

as

I

did
.

And

I

want

to

thank

Nick

again

for

coming

on

the

show

and

sharing

his

extensive

knowledge
.

You

can

find

links

to

next

book

in

the

show

notes

as

well

as

his

social

media

on

YouTube
,

Twitter
,

and

the

academia

dot

edu

he

mentioned
.

While

we're

on

the

subject

of

social

networks
,

Gary:

you

can

find

medieval

archives

over

on

Mastodon

and

Blue

Sky
.

They

are

the

new

kids

on

the

social

media

and

it's

not

as

crowded

on

them
.

And

there's

a

lot

of

good

conversations

going

on

over

there
.

Links

to

those

profiles

also

in

the

show

notes
.

Send

your

comments

and

questions

to

podcasts

that

medieval

archives

dot

com
.

And

if

you're

enjoying

the

podcast
.

Easy

way

to

support

the

show

is

to

tell

your

friends

can

share

it

right

from

your

smartphone
.

Send

them

the

link

to

this

great

interview
.

Gary:

If

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getting

value

from

the

show
,

consider

supporting

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donation
.

It

helps

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There's

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Head

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consider
.

Gary:

Thank

you

for

your

time

and

thank

you

for

your

continued

support

and

that'll

wrap

it

up

for

this

episode
.

Thanks

again

for

subscribing

and

listening

to

the

Medieval

Archives

podcast
.

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the

Dark

Ages

for

the

digital

world

for
.

Creators and Guests

Medieval Archives
Host
Medieval Archives
Illuminating the Dark Ages for the Digital World. Podcast and website dedicated to the medieval era.
Nicholas Morton
Guest
Nicholas Morton
Associate Professor in Middle Eastern and Global history (11th - 14th century) - interested in pretty much everything (all views my own) ✝️
MAP88: The Crusader States with Nic Morton
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